iView and metadata from Bridge

[MarkP]

One thing that I haven't found explained in the iView documentation has to do with its compatibility
with .xmp files.

I know that iView supports and reads .xmp's, but if you add keywords, captions, ratings, rankings
to a .NEF / .xmp fileset, does iView write the data to the RAW file or to the .xmp?

If its the former, then I assume good DAM practice requires the use of Bridge for any metadata
updating until the .DNG files are created.

Thanks,

Mark

[johnbeardy]

It's to the raw files, using the Nikon SDK. The metadata then gets rolled into the DNG file, but excludes any iView-specific data such as catalog sets and custom fields.

However, you can use Action > Extract Metadata to generate XMP files from iView. If you send them to the same folder as the raw files, then Adobe can read and add to them. Note iView overwrites any existing XMP files, but its XMP file output includes catalog sets and custom fields which then get rolled into the DNG.

John

[MarkP]

Thanks John,

It would seem that if iView is using the Nikon SDK, that adding metadata in iView iis relatively safe,
(as they are a very high-profile developer) but once the .xmps are created it would then seem that
using Bridge / .xmp files would remain the best approach (for consistency) prior to DNG conversion.

From what you are saying, I'm assuming that if you use iView to write to a IPTC field that has data
in  the .xmp file, , the new data will be written to the RAW file and that field is then deleted from
the .xmp


Mark

[Michael_S]

What is the latest on the safety of using IVMP to directly add metadata into NEF files?  I recall discussions about how some users encountered file corruptions.

[peterkrogh]

Mark,
I'm not sure you understand it perfectly.  Reread Beardy's post and do some tests on a few test files.

Michael,
Writing to NEF files has been problematic in the recent past because the libraries supplied by Nikon were not current.  They made changes to the metadata structure and did not supply new libraries to existing customers and that made iView destroy some metadata.  Given the new Capture NX metadata construct, and what seems to be a less-than-thorough quality control on compatibility, I would not be confident that Nikon is staying ahead of the game on this.

Unfortunately, the testing for metadata durability is a kind of convoluted process, particularly since Nikon does not divulge the structure of the files.  To be entirely sure of its safety, one would want to try creating importing and changing metadata through every combination of software that you use, and to do new tests when new versions of software are released, or when you buy a new camera, or upgrade the firmware of an existing camera.

Also be aware that formats like NEF do not support XMP data, so your ratings will not be synchronized to the file.

If you want to use proprietary RAWS, I suggest the following.

1. Test your workflow to see metadata comes along for the ride.
2. Reduce the number of applications your images go through, and the number of times they get passed back and forth.
3. Only sync metadata to files when there is a reason to.  Note that backing up the cataloging work is not a particularly good reason to sync, since that can be more easily and durably done by backing up the catalog document.
Peter

[MarkP]

Thank You Peter,

Yes, I re-read Beardys post and better understand that it's possible to sync metadata back to a 'fresh' .xmp
rather than to the .NEF. However, from your explaination regarding Nikons spotty support of the SDK, your
suggested workflow seems even more relevant, particularly when  using Bridge as the 'intake' application.
I think I will  avoid writing to .NEF files at all costs, as I have yet to be convinced of the advantages of Nikon
RAW conversion as a primary engine over the Bridge / Camera Raw workflow plus the other available software
products that have been discussed here.

An obvious advantage of working with DNG's is that if you do want to apply  new metadata to archival files
(i.e. re-visiting earlier stages of the workflow) is that you no longer run the risk of corrupting the image or losing
existing metadata. Getting to the .DNG stage does seem to enhance versatility rather than restricting it
(if I'm viewing this correctly).

I will also do some more thorough testing now that I have more of the 'big picture' in place.

Mark

[xopoe]

i thought i understood this, but i think i'm having a very hard time understanding what resides where...

with NEF, bridge keeps things nice and separate - untouched raw and everything else (raw adjustments, ratings, keywords, iptc, other xmp, whatever) goes xmp sidecar file.

[converting at this stage safely rolls all of that into a dng file, which is essentially a 'jacket' holding raw dng data and metadata together but separate]

iview, however, when syncing (with export) records some metadata back to xmp sidecar but some back to the NEF itself?  what goes where?
if i don't want iview to touch the NEF, export metadata via sync (which would supposedly include changes originally made in bridge that were brought into iview, plus changes made in iview) into a folder, and manually pair that xmp sidecar file back with the NEF?  hopefully i'm misunderstanding this last part, because that sounds incredibly combersome to the point of being impossible.

on a maybe related note, i just imported 26000+ photos (raws, dngs, tiffs, psds and jpgs) and waited forever for the previews to build - but, except for literally a couple of random exceptions, only some of the metadata came through.  i did a test on some of these same files in a new catalog and the metadata is there and readable by iview, so now i'm waiting forever, again, for iview to update metadata via the sync merge action.  did i do something wrong the first time around?

[peterkrogh]

with NEF, bridge keeps things nice and separate - untouched raw and everything else (raw adjustments, ratings, keywords, iptc, other xmp, whatever) goes xmp sidecar file.

[converting at this stage safely rolls all of that into a dng file, which is essentially a 'jacket' holding raw dng data and metadata together but separate]

Right.

iview, however, when syncing (with export) records some metadata back to xmp sidecar but some back to the NEF itself?  what goes where?

If you choose to sync with iView, it will write to the NEF.  But it can't write everything - some data is not supported by NEF, namely XMP data.  This gets left behind.  You could also export to an XMP sidecar, but iView will overwrite existing sidecar files, and since it does not harvest all Bridge data, this will lead to data loss of some stuff, such as camera Raw settings.  For this reason, I would consider this feature to be not fully implemented yet, and should only be used for special circumstances, or in instances where the file has never been in Bridge or Lightroom first.

So there are workarounds for Proprietary RAW, but they pretty much suck at this time.

As to your importation issues, I'd do a more modest import, like 5000 at a time.  If you get bugs importing metadata, contact iView with specifics.  I know they are on a major stabilization jag at the moment, and should hear about all bugs.
Peter

[xopoe]

thanks for the reply peter.  i did some more research and testing after posting last night and figured out as much.

but just to make sure i understand...
in iview, if i did want to get my NEFs fully updated (raw settings and metadata applied in bridge PLUS all metadata applied in iview), i would move ratings and ivew metadata into iptc, sync, which would put all that info back into the NEF itself, leaving the xmp sidecar to hold raw settings (other metadata in that same sidecar would be ignored for the metadata actually written into NEF itself?).

that sounds a bit dodgy so i'm planning on converting to DNGs.  luckily i haven't done much to my NEFs, except raw settings and a few random ratings (in bridge) that don't mean much.

one question i have about that, that maybe should go in the dng thread, is after batch converting in iview, i'll easily be able to move my original NEFs out of iview into one folder for backup, but what's the best way to get the sidecars to go with them since iview seems to be awfully picky about how it deals with them?  use finder?  (they'll be buried away in folders, sub folders, sub sub folders, etc).


in an ideal world, camera would shoot dng, all programs would read/write metadata to dng, and there would be an option to include/exclude whatever metadata you want when creating derivatives.

[peterkrogh]

I think you have it right.
Peter