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Author Topic: I think I'm getting dumberer - some help please  (Read 2718 times)
JasonTinacci
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« on: June 09, 2006, 11:28:32 PM »

I think I'm getting dumberer - some help please

So I have the book and have read through it entirely as well as gone back over some areas for clarification and after doing so and reading posts here, I wonder if I was reading a different book. I even attended Peter’s ASMP PixelCash seminar here in SF.

I completely understand and look forward to using the workflow outlined in the book. I also have a solid understanding of computing hardware and software. But I'm getting tripped up in buckets. In fact, I feel as though my foot is stuck in one, my head is in another and I'm clomping around aimlessly. Dreams of Mensa dwindling…

Here’s what I’ve got so far – hardware, workflow and concepts…. My desktop is configured with a couple of drives, one for working files, Word docs, etc and a large drive that I’m partitioning in two – one for Originals (RAW) and one for Derivatives.

I also have an external drive of the same capacity as the large internal that I’m using to backup to, as well as a DVD burner to burn my 4GB RAW and DRV buckets with.

My directories are arranged as outlined in the book.
Originals buckets look like this: RAW_###_100606 and contains subfolders of various names up to 4gb.

Derivative buckets look like this: DRV_### and contains subfolders of various names up to 4gb.

Question: How do you maintain that DRV buckets always match up to RAW buckets? Won’t DRV files be larger than the RAW and thus be less likely to match the RAW bucket? Does it have to match or just give you a good starting point of where to look should you need to revisit the RAW archives?

What’s the difference between a camera RAW and a DNG? I know what a DNG is, but how do I treat the DNG if I intend to keep my camera RAW files and convert to DNG? The DNG becomes my derivative correct?

What happens when I need to revisit the DNG archive months/years later and create, say a b&w image for a client? How does that new derivative get filed away? Does it go in a new bucket or appended to the DNG archive bucket if there’s space? I suspect it goes into a new bucket and Iview will take care of the rest. Yes?

Guess I’ll leave it there for now. Hopefully any responses will trigger that light bulb in my dim head warding off further rambling on my part. Sorry for my fog, folks.
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johnbeardy
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2006, 02:46:14 AM »

Let derivative and raw buckets happily diverge - there's no reason for them not to.

Think of the DNG as a clone of the raw, not as a derivative. Some like Peter discard the raws, others like me keep both but never really see the raws again after the cloning. The advantages of the DNG are the ACR-corrected preview and the ability to safely write all sorts of metadata into the file.

Combining both answers - DNG's not a derivative and I suspect you're still trying to make your buckets meaningful rather than rely purely on the files' metadata.

John
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peterkrogh
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2006, 04:45:30 AM »

Jason,
Does Beardy's reply lift some of the fog?
Peter
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JasonTinacci
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2006, 12:03:59 PM »

John, thanks for the reply. The fog is beginning to lift and buckets are happily diverging. A coupla follow-up questions for you though...

You said "Think of the DNG as a clone of the raw, not as a derivative."
Since you keep your RAW files once you make your DNGs, which I plan on doing, where do you file away the DNGs if they're not derivatives? What's in the contents of your derivative buckets? Do you archive the RAW and DNGs in the same bucket?

A question from my previous post - What happens when I need to revisit the DNG archive months/years later to create, say a b&w image for a client? How does that new derivative get filed away? Does it go in a new bucket or appended to the DNG archive bucket if there’s space? I suspect it goes into a new bucket and Iview will take care of the rest via metadata. Yes?

Regarding my hardware config – does it make sense? Any other recommendations for the hardware I have?

Thanks for your help.

Jason
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johnbeardy
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2006, 02:14:05 PM »

Jason

I have 3 sets of buckets - raw, dng, and derivatives.

New derivatives get stored in the bucket that's currently open. When it's full, I start a new one for derivatives only. They're sequentially numbered and I rely on the metadata. The only files that go in the dng buckets are dng's.

Hardware config sounds OK to start with but a lot depends on your shooting volume.

John
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Marc Sabatella
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 08:00:24 PM »

Let derivative and raw buckets happily diverge - there's no reason for them not to.

This also confounded me at first, and I have to say, the divergence still bothers me a little.  Mostly because I'm still shooting JPEG for now, so I can't do even simple exposure or color adjustments without creating a derivative.  So I may be leaning more heavily on derivatives than some do.  Although I don't feel the need to do even  adjustments very often, and not (just) because I'm not a "serious photographer".  It's worth noting that I'm also a semi-professional landscape painter, and I do virtually all my work in the field and only rarely revisit my paintings in the studio later.  And actually, my real profession is music - specifically, I am a jazz pianist.  Most of the music I create is improvised - this has a similar what-you-see-is-what-you-get, take-it-or-leave-it vibe.  So my attitude regarding my photos is in keeping with my attitudes about my other passions.  On the other hand, I'm quite convinced I'll be shooting mostly RAW at some point soon.  But for various reasons, I'd prefer to get a really good JPEG workflow figured out to use for now and keep re-evaluating when it makes sense to switch as time goes on.

Since I ended up going with ACDSee Pro (despite some very valid concerns raised by Peter), I have no built-in version tracking, but I'm experimenting with ways of tracking derivatives myself.  One idea I'm playing with is setting up nested virtual sets just for this purpose.  As I have it currently, I have a top-level set called Derivatives, and underneath that are sets for Original and Master.  Right now, that's the only kind of derivative I'm really interested in keeping - any others I use are usually created and deleted automatically for me (when, for example, I choose to send some as screen-sized email attachments).  As I'm doing my initial work with images assigning metadata and rating, if I see any I feel need post-processing, I toss them in my "Derivatives/Original" virtual set.  If I'm feeling industrious, at that time, I'll also make my adjustments and save them into a new file.  Just as one would in the "usual" DAM Book workflow, the new file goes into the derivative bucket, which is completely decoupled from the originals bucket.  But I'll also assign it to the "Derivatives/Master" virtual set.  At that time I can also copy the metadata and assign it to all virtual sets the original was in, and perhaps *de-assign* the original or even remove keywords from it so only one copy of the file shows up in future searches.

So far I have just one big set for the originals and another for the masters, but of course, I could subdivide these into virtual "buckets", which could correspond to the actual originals buckets, or be content-based.  Assuming I actually do follow through and make masters for all files in my Derivatives/Original set, then there will be a one-to-one correspondence between originals and masters, which I figure may help me keep track of them down the line.  I like the way this makes it easy to view just derivatives, just originals, or both side-by-side (by viewing both sets and sorting by name).  That way if I later upgrade my processing software - or, more to the point, if I upgrade my own processing skills :-) - I can easily browse these images and see which might be worth revisitng.

But I think the main idea here is that my master for most practical purposes replaces the original.  In fact, I would generally be treating my originals more like RAW files that have been converted to DNG but are still being archived just in case.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate any feedback on these ideas.  And feel free to remind me of what a mistake it is to be shooting JEPG or using ACDSee Pro; at some point, I'll write up a defense of these choices for myself.  But one thing that impressed me on reading Peter's book is that the ideas in it are *not* just valuable for the professional, but many of the specific techniques described are going to seem so daunting to many amateurs that they won't go there at all, or will make only token efforts that miss the point (eg, the guy who said he wasn't sure he needed a database...).  I'm interested in working out a "DAM for the rest of us" approach that is as true as possible to the ideals put forth by Peter.  And given that "the rest of us" is going to look a whole lot like the set of folks for whom shooting RAW is just out of the question, and hence will not be able to take advantage of ACR adjustments and DNG in doing the sort of basic post processing that even we like to do, we're going to need a way to deal with dealing with the derivatives we create.

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peterkrogh
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 10:39:42 PM »

Marc,
Part of what you are doing at the moment, is preserving your images until the tools get better.

I'd expect the derivative file problem to be a lot easier to deal with within a year or so.  Lightroom will make a metadata-based edit and save to DNG...

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