XM2 & II - Metadata and JPEGs - embedded vs sidecar xmp

[Lauren Singer]

Hello,

Here's the background for my question.

I am setting up a workflow for a school's photo archive. This project will encompass photos taken and contributed by teachers, staff & parents. The photos are all JPEGs. The archive will be housed and backed up through the school's server system.

Will be setting up Expression Media 2 (XM2) catalogs for each school year (ex: 2009-2010), as the amount of images in the total collection exceeds the recommended size limits of a single catalog.

I am looking for very straight forward options, as the staff that will operate this archive are librarians, not photographers. No image adjustment editing will be done to photos in this archive. Only renaming and textural metadata will be involved.

Currently looking at a TWO Step process.
1) Image Ingester for renaming / folder structure / bulk metadata
2) XM2 for Cataloging, plus specific metadata and catalog sets

Here's where I'm having a lot of confusion - - -

In Image Ingester, if I use "Merge JPEGS", XM2 does not see the metadata.
Without "Merge JPEGs" I end up with the sidecar files, which I think for this project adds an element of risk, as the archivist(s) are not photographers and could find these extra files intimidating. DNGs from JPEGs are not an option as files become too large.

But, if I bring JPEGs into XM2 with no metadata AND no sidecar files, add the metadata at the catalog level, and then sync back to the file, there is NO sidecar file - the metadata is in the JPEG, and XM2 can see this data. Even if I remove the images from the catalog and re-import them later, XM2 can see the metadata. Additionally, any metadata synced to a JPEG from XM2 can be seen by Bridge and Lightroom.

If I add metadata to a JPEG from Bridge, then there is no sidecar file, and XM2 can see the metadata.

The Bridge option works, but then there is the added expense of buying Photoshop to get Bridge.

Why is it that Brigde can write metadata to a JPEG in a way that XM2 can read it, but Image Ingester cannot?

I really would prefer to use Image Ingester because of it's bulk metadata handling and all the presets I could create for the archivist, if I could get around this sidecar issue.

Looking forward to any help on this matter,
Please let me know if I haven't stated my issue clearly - it is a bit complicated and round about.

Lauren Singer

[peterkrogh]

Lauren,
I would use ImageIngester Pro only for new shoots.  Any images that are already in existence should probably be annotated by working in the catalog.
Is that what you planned, or were you going to use ImageIngester to work on photos that have already been shot and downloaded?
Peter

[Louie Sherwin]

Hi Lauren,

What you suggest should work just fine. Are you sure that you are using the latest version of ImageIngester Pro? There was a bug a while back with the merge metadata for JPG files that caused a problem like you are seeing. Here is the discussion thread IPTC metadata particularly "Rating" confused after IIP. Marc fixed it so I am hoping that it has not reappeared. 

FYI:

Bridge it self is not licensed at least for CS4 and I presume it is the same for CS5. So you can install a trial for Photoshop and even after the trial license expires you can still use  Bridge. I think the Bridge has the easiest  and most complete access to metadata of any application out there. There is one thing to be careful of if you end up using it for bulk metadata. I have found that you have to be sure to wait until the spinning update wheel to stop and every file has been updated before you try to make additional changes. I have found that if you don't you can interrupt the update process and not all your metadata will be updated.

-louie

[Lauren Singer]

Peter, Louie,

I am away for a few days, thank you for your answers, will respond as soon as I get a few minutes to take it all in.

Do believe I'll need update II, and the Bridge idea might do the trick, too.

Thanks!
Lauren Singer

[Lauren Singer]

Louie,

Thank you for your reply. I have been away for a couple of weeks and could not work on testing your suggestions until today.

Before updating ImageIngester I was using version 3.2.04

I have updated ImageIngester to version 3.3.06 and re-tried ingesting JPEGs with "merge XMPs" checked.

Results are still the same:

Metadata CAN be seen by Bridge (CS3 - not quite ready to download CS5 at this time)
Metadata can NOT be seen by Expression Media 2 / Service Pack 2 / Version 2.0.2096.0 (Windows, XP Pro)

I read through the threads on the Merge problem that you posted in December 2007:
IPTC metadata particularly "Rating" confused after IIP  (http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=9ab50a3396363a086569bbab379186bf&topic=2830.0)
and
Problem exporting metadata to JPEGs after using "Merge XMPs" in ImageIngester  (http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=2841.msg15985#msg15985)

You mentioned that Marc had addressed this bug. Unfortunately, it is back.

Unless I can find a fix, I will try out your suggested method:
    * Turn off the "Merge XMPs" option in the IIP apps preferences and run your import as you normally would do. IIP will create xmp sidecar files, one for each JPEG.
    * Open a iView (Expression) catalog and import the new folder into the catalog. IView will see the xmp sidecar files and include the information in the catalog for each image.
    * Select all the images you just imported to the catalog and export annotations to the original files.
    * Now you can delete the xmp sidecar files as the information has been stored in the image file.

I will also look into switching to Bridge for the initial steps - as my tests show that Expression can see metadata from the JPEG without the addition of sidecar xmp files.  But, I had really wanted to keep away from image editing software for this project, as the archivists will be not photographers.

If you have any other information on the Merge XMPs issue, please let me know.

Also, as I initially thought this was primarily an Expression issue, I posted this in the Expression discussions.
Should this be moved or repeated to the ImageIngester discussions ? as Marc has not responded here.

Thank you again, Lauren Singer

[Sigi]

Hello Lauren,

1. use imageingestor with sidecar files
2. Load the pictures into Expression Media
3. Sync the metadata to the orginal file
4. Delete the sidecar files

I have used that approach for quite a while - I do not like sidecars. This works quite fine

Siegfried

[Lauren Singer]

Siegfried,

Thank you for confirming that this routine works for you, too.
Unless something changes with II, this will be what I'll recommend.
I'm finding that all the other functions I've set up in II to be too useful to not use it.

Regards, Lauren

[peterkrogh]

Lauren,
On another thread, Patrick says that the ACR settings in the XMP seem to be choking EM.

http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=4720.0

Can you try that?
Peter

[Lauren Singer]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the link and suggestion. Been out of pocket again and couldn't get to this till tonight.

First, to review my variables - Windows XP Pro / Image Ingester Pro 3.3.06 / Expression Media 2 SP 2 ver 2.0.2096.0 / Bridge CS3

I tested ingesting JPEGs two ways: 1) with Merge XMP checked and 2) with Merge XMP UNchecked.
ACR/Develop settings was selected to [none] both times.

Results:
 1)  With Merge XMP checked, the metadata does not show up in Expression, but does show in Bridge
 2)  With Merge XMP UNchecked, the metadata does show in Expression, but does not show in Bridge

Further Results for ingestion # 2
When the metadata from the XMP sidecar files is exported back to the files, Bridge is able to recognize the metadata including with XMP files deleted.
And, of course, Expression continues to see the metadata.

I am fairly sure that the ACR/Develop settings has been set to [none] all along, as the workflow I've been setting up for this school will not include image editing and because I have not used this feature yet.

Just to cover anything I could think of, I made an ACR preset, ingested with the preset on & with Merge XMP checked. Then I went back to the ACR set at [none] and with Merge XMP checked. Still got the same results as ingestion #1 - no metadata in Expression, yes metadata in Bridge.

Wish it would work for me as it did for Patrick...

from Patrick's post:
"When I looked at the XML files generated by IIP they included some ACR/Develop settings...  "

I must confess that don't know how to find this information or I would post it.

Thank you for any additional light you may be able to shed on this issue.

Lauren

[peterkrogh]

Lauren,
It sounds like there is a work-around ( go to EM first, then sync metadata).

Peter

[PatrickArnold]

Sorry for the slow reply Lauren.

If you run an ingestion with Merge XMP unchecked, then there should be a small XMP file containing the XML metadata for each JPEG in the same directory as the ingested JPEGs. You can view this file in Notepad (or post it here) and can see whether there are some ACR settings getting in there. You have a different configuration to me so it is possible there are other problems (you have XP whereas I have Windows 7, you have CS3 whereas I have CS5).

The behaviour you see in experiment 2 is correct. Adobe software did not read XMP files for JPEGs at least in the CS3 versions.

Patrick.