Folder Names - spaces or not?

[agillanders]

Hi folks,

My main bucket folders are organized by year with no descriptive text so no issues there, but at the lowest level in the tree I append a brief description of the shoot/project. Thus far I have always used underscores in place of spaces everywhere but I am starting to think spaces after the main bucket identity might actually make sense moving forwards.

By way of example for a recent shoot my folder names are of the form:

ORIG_005_2009/ORIG_005_091011_WWRR_Recce/
DRV_005_2009/DRV_005_091011_WWRR_Recce/
but I am considering
ORIG_005_2009/ORIG_005_091011 WWRR Recce/
DRV_005_2009/DRV_005_091011 WWRR Recce/

A small issue I know...but one that keeps nagging at me. So what do we think about giving in to using spaces in folder names (and filenames for that matter)? In the past some OS's couldn't deal with them so an underscore was a sensible precaution...but all the modern OS's that I am ever likely to use now support spaces and that sort of feature is not likely to go away again since it would cause mayhem with most users existing data.

Is it maybe time to throw caution to the wind on this one?

Alistair

[johnbeardy]

I feel so. When you put files on the web, then use underscores, but not on your hard drives. One exception is the image's unique ID - YYMMDD_0123 where the underscore can be helpful when searching (eg "_01" would distinguish from pictures shot in 2001).

John

[agillanders]

Hello again John,

Excellent points as usual!

OK, for my archival folder names which are only ever going to be on my own media I think I'm going to loosen up; but as you say keep the structured part with underscores.

My filenames for internal use are entirely structured (no freeform text) since I use folder location, metadata and keywords via both LR and Bridge to search so I don't need descriptive filenames. Filenames for external use frequenly ARE posted to the Web so a very good point there...I will continue to cling the underscore for those.

Thanks

Alistair

[BobSmith]

A minor consideration but it's one I think about...

If you ever have need to perform command line functions on items in your archive, typing commands when the path has no spaces (or other "special" characters) is simpler to do reliably.  I find myself often using the command line to alter file/folder permissions... or to copy/move items.  This is on various flavors of Mac OS.

Bob Smith

[agillanders]

Hi Bob,

Hmmm...a moment of pause there...I do, on occasion...resort to the CLI because I'm a craggy old f**t that grew up that way and still find it easer sometimes! :-)

However I am on Windows (Vista about to go to 7) and the Windows command line environment has provided support for long folder and filenames including spaces for a long time now. And inextremis I can always resort to the good ol' 8.3 format names too...they still work in parallel with the long names in ther CLI (actually to be fair I haven't tested that in Windows 7...but I suspect it still will).

The only restriction I have had issues with in the recent past is not spaces but the maximum path+filename length with deep folder trees. Also on occasions the different standards applied (Joliet for CD's is more restrictive that the OS for example). Allowing spaces can encourage profligate use of characters in the folder/filename which could bump into these other limitations.

However the curmudgeon in me usually prevails and I tend to use concise names. These darn youngsters who never had the "discipline" of 8.3 just waste characters willy nilly you know! :-)

Alistair

[peterkrogh]

Alistair,
I've also heard from Marc Rochkind that the spaces can sometimes foul things up for Vista - not sure about 7. It's unpredictable. 
So, on Mac, it's generally fine as long as you don't port that folder name to the web somehow.
On PC, it's safer to exclude spaces, but won't necessarily get you.
Peter

[agillanders]

Hi Peter,

I'd be intereted in knowing the circumstances he sees issues – I've done some testing at this end and not found any problems yet. Although I do suspect that CLI commands that need a FOLDER path without an ending filename as an attribute might get confused if you don't add a final \ or enclose in ""... I just don't tend to use many of those. My habit...for years now...when using a CLI in a deep tree is to CD first then issue local commands rather than specify long folder paths as an attribute.

And the ONLY reason I have used ANY CLI commands since I started this thread...other than TESTING for DAM...is troubleshooting IP configurations and envirnoment variables. It turns out I really do not use it for folder/file management any more...I have better solutions for everthing that I used to resort to the CLI for (xcopy, bulk renaming and so on). So although a shortcut to the CLI is aways on my startup menu it is for a few system issues rather than file handling.

In short, after testing I feel pretty comfortable using spaces in folder names in Vista and Windows 7 and risking CLI issues since I really don't use it any more for that purpose.

But I always welcome specific advice about stuff I don't know! :-)

Alistair

[peterkrogh]

Alistair,
I think the issues he sees are those where he is leveraging CLI/API tools to do some work in ImageIngester.  The problem is that folders are not passed properly to the application, and it's unpredictable.
Peter

[leala.abbott]

Here is my two cents:

Do not use spaces.

Rationale: Spaces can cause unexpected problems in most operating systems and should be avoided. For example they need to be "escaped" when converted into hyperlinks or NFS references. Use (_) underscores or the dash (-) instead of spaces. Some systems will replace spaces in file names with a (%20) or (+) which results in file naming corruption making it more difficult to determine the actual file name.

Also in regards to underscores and hypens, here is the argument against using underscores in some instances. If at some point those names/terms are turned into hyperlinks it is hard to tell the difference between where there is an underscore and where there is a space, as the underscore becomes lost in the underline.

--L.Abbott

[agillanders]

Hi there,

We're talking about FOLDER names not FILE names. I agree 100% with you regarding file names because they will often be visible on external systems in one way or another. However the folder names on my own archive platform are never seen anywhere other than my own platform. And if I am comfortable that my platform handles spaces OK then there is no problem.

FWIW I have no been operating for a few months with spaces in some of my archive FOLDER names and it is working well. My filenames remain suitably cryptic and space free!:-)

Regards

Alistair

[leala.abbott]

Oh I totally understand that we are discussing "folder" names.

However, when ingesting legacy assets into a new DAM system, folder names can become quite valuable sources of metadata, names can be extracted and used as field values. Therefore, one must always think interoperability when choosing a naming schema for files AND folders as you don't want to risk the loss of any data. The system you use today may not be the one you need to migrate to in the future.

--L.Abbott, MLIS

[leala.abbott]

Something to keep in mind, always....

When ingesting legacy assets into a new DAM system, folder names can become quite valuable sources of metadata, names can be extracted and used as field values. Therefore, one must always think interoperability when choosing a naming schema for files AND folders as you don't want to risk data/information loss. The challenge is not just whether your OS can read your files just fine, but also with software. The system you use today may not be the one you need to migrate to in the future.

--L.Abbott, MLIS

[agillanders]

Hmmm...naah...not buying it.

It would take seconds to use a decent bulk renaming tool to replace the spaces with underscores if the highly unlikely scenario you describe were to come to pass. In general OS capabilities improve, they don't regress, and spaces in both folder and filenames are here to stay in most mainstream platforms today. And quality software manages that since it is part of the OS capability. You could never get MS Logo certification without such basic support for example.

So my current platform makes it easy to do.
Future platforms are highly unlikely to regress.
And I already have the tools for a trivial fix if it really did become an issue.

This is one of those areas that I think people look for problems where really they are minimal to imagined at worst. The readability enhancements improve my workflow every day. Not to do that guarding against a future "will probably never happen" scenaro that is easily dealt with is just clinging to sacred cows. Go forth and enjoy the space say I, freedom can be yours too!:-)

Regards

Alistair

PS: And yet I still won't use spaces in filenames myself...what is this disease we have?

[peterkrogh]

Alistair,
Well, you've heard the arguments, and you can make an informed decision. That's what we aim for here.
I would say to keep watch for unexplained failures of programs or scripts to pass images along to other programs (or to itself) correctly. If you run into such a situation, the folder space may be the culprit.

As to filename, I'll be much more insistent. Web-based publishing is becoming more important by the minute, amd spaces just don't work there.
Peter