DNG vs NEF when editing metadata in Bridge

[agillanders]

Hi folks,

I'm new here and working hard to define a revised workflow for my photography. I've got as far as implementing a test through to DNG and I've hit a...umm...problem?

In Bridge I am used to selecting many images and adujusting bulk metadata for everything at one time. During this test I had done that on the NEF's then converted to dng...after which I realized my template had an ollder email address so I went into the dng folder, selected everything, and found that I culd NOT edit the email address in the metadata. If I select a single image I can edit it, but not in bulk. Any idea why this is the case? For me this could literally be a showstopper for dng since I frequently add to bulk metadata and keywords etc AFTER the initial achiving process; not always a whole folder but substantial sub-groups within one.

Regards

Alistair

[peterkrogh]

Alistair,
Is it possible that only some of the DNGs have the mistake?  I think Bridge won't let you edit fields in the metadata panel when they are mismatched.  I do not believe this is DNG-related.

Try it with two image that you know to have the same value in the fields.

Peter

[agillanders]

Hi Peter,

OK, fair question and I have done a bit more detective work and DNG is certainly involved although possibly not the originator. You are correct in that it is only certain images that cause the problem however there does not seem to be an obvious cause for it.

For example in my test folder of 118 images it turns out there are only 2 that cause the problem, and these cannot have their metadata edited in either the Metadata Panel or File Info. In fact the best way I have found to spot them so far is to key through each image and look at the metadata panel...if the little pen icons dissappear you have found a problem image. If I select the other 116 images everything seems to be fine. However if I go back to the NEF's they ALL work just fine.

This does not seem to depend on the metadata content...some fields have 'multiple values' obviously but they behave as expected on the 116 normal files. The 2 problem files clearly have a problem within the dng file itself although how/why it got there I have no idea.  I don't know if it originates with the DNG converter or DNG itself or Bridge or what.

However this is clearly not reliable; I have a perfectly innocent appearing NEF and post conversion the metadata is no longer editable. It is bad enough that it happens but then finding the problem files to attempt a reconvert is ridiculously time consuming...manually paging through every image.

Hmm...the plot thickens. I reconverted those 2 using ACR and those dng's are fine...so it is not the image. Furthermore with the original problem dng's it is not just metadata editing...they won't even open in ACR from Bridge (the menu item is greyed out) although if I try open them in Photoshop it does take me into ACR. And get this...I use ACR to change some things and hit Done...and the thumbnail updates to show the new version BUT the ACR icon does NOT appear for the image back in Bridge!

This suggests it is probably the DNG Converter to blame, I think, but the damage is then done permenantly to the fle...and without a reliable bulk conversion this becomes non-starter in my book. After all dng, ACR, Bridge and the Converter are ALL from Adobe...if they can't get it right then what hope for 3rd parties? It seems to be that DNG is still more beta than release quality...I want to be convinced otherwise but the evidence is not great! :-(

Any ideas as to what might be in the original NEF settings that are causing Converter to produce an uneditable dng? Is there something simple that can be avoided to prevent this happening...or is it a random event?

I want to get rid of al those sidecar files...but as things stand how can I be confident my data is safe in dng?

Regards

Alistair

[agillanders]

Further results...

If I open the damaged dng's in Photoshop to launch ACR and then Save As dng from ACR I get a dng file that will not display in Bridge at all...I just get a Photoshop icon. I seem to remember reading somewhere that indicates a corrupted dng file?

Plus I went bacl and reconverted the original NEF+XMP files using the DNG Converter...and this time the resulting dng's appear fine.

So somehow the DNG converter has corrupted nearly 2% of the files and it appears to be a random event!! 

Alistair

[peterkrogh]

Alistair,
Okay, so there's something else going on here. This is very unlikely to be caused by "DNG being a beta". And it is not a "random event".  There is some kind of explainable cause here.  I'm at least as concerned that you have some kind of system or hardware problem.

A few questions: (Short answers are best).

Can you open the problem DNGs all the way into Photoshop?
If you reconvert the DNG files (send the DNGs to the converter) does it produce a new DNG with no problems?
What software and hardware are you using?
What version of the DNG converter?
How did you make the conversion?
Did anything get transfered over a network?
What applications touched your files?
Were all the DNGs made at the same time, with the same settings?
Are the problem files locked? 
If on Mac, have you run permissions repair recently?

Save those corrupted files- they may offer a clue.

Peter

[agillanders]

Peter,

Can you open the problem DNGs all the way into Photoshop?
Yes

If you reconvert the DNG files (send the DNGs to the converter) does it produce a new DNG with no problems?
In fact if I just move or copy them they seem to fix themselves. Reconverting also seems to work.

What software and hardware are you using?
Dell XPS M1530 Dual 2.2 GHz with 4GB RAM running Vista Ultimate SP1

What version of the DNG converter?
5.2.0.65

How did you make the conversion?
Folder conversion using Converter with full size preview, lossless compression, preserve but not embed RAW

Did anything get transfered over a network?
No...all the images, source and destination, are on an external USB2 drive.

What applications touched your files?
The OS for copying off my Epson P-5000, Bridge and DNG Converter...that's it.

Were all the DNGs made at the same time, with the same settings?
Yes

Are the problem files locked? 
No
 
If on Mac, have you run permissions repair recently?
N/A

Save those corrupted files- they may offer a clue.
Mmmm...only one left since I tested moving one of them and it seems to have self corrected. Th other one is still there with the problems.

Alistair

PS: I did notice that I was having some problems keywording in bulk on the dng's too...although I have not investigated that as thoroughly yet. This could well be to do with the fact that I am upgrading my keyword hierarchy and a bunch of stuff is moving around which is giving Bridge (and me) a headache...it pulls back the old path even though the keywords still exist on a new one. This might be something worth emphasizing in the future...you really ned to pin down your keyword backbone early so changes are just adding leaves not transplanting branches! 

[peterkrogh]

Alistair,
I think the most important clue I see here is that moving the file solves the problem. (And the fact that you can open them means that there is probably nothing horribly wrong with the files themselves). I'd say that indicates more of an OS or filesystem problem than one with the DNG files.

When you say "move" do you mean just change folder (which should not rewrite the file, only change the directory representation of it), or do you have to copy it to a different drive? 

Does renaming the DNG in the Explorer  fix the problem?

Can you change the DNG with another application, such as Expression Media, or Lightroom?

Do you have Bridge set up to run as an administrator?

Do you have experience running any drive utilities (such as the ones that come with Vista) on your drives?

Do you have the DNG CODEC installed?

Peter

[agillanders]

Peter,

Sorry for the delay...a small matter of going out to shoot pictures!

Yes...I also was intrigued that moving a file (on the same disk) could cause any sort of change!! Almost as if there was some sort of error in the FAT that prevented it being fully used and the move fixed that...but the FAT is such a simple beast I don't see what could cause it???

So I have just run a conversion of 2000+ images in a few batches as a further test...and this problem does not seem to be re-occuring! Go figure!

I'm still a little tentative from this experience...so I guess I'll backup the NEF's too...but only catalog the dng's. And obviously validate the dng's post creation...is there a good way to do this that would test other aspects? I know that if I select the full folder and try change an item of metadata in the panel I get a warning if this problem reoccurs...anything else I should look at?

Regards

Alistair

PS: Thanks for your patient attention on this one. I really like the DAM book and was pleasantly surprised how close some of my practices already were to your suggestions...I just never formalized them (I've already reworked the checklist for my changes). My workflow is different but only in minor ways (e.g. I rarely have a PC in the field so I ALWAYS backup to a Wallet type drive first and download to the computer from that...it's much faster).

Anyway...you'll see me crop up elsewhere with a few other questions!:)