iView and Capture One

[ppk]

Most of my work is shot tethered directly into my laptop in studio.  I use C1 to do my output from RAW to TIF, as I've found this works best for me and I believe the quality is a bit better than bridge in RAW conversion.  Also, a good majority of the digital studios in NYC are equipped with Capture One as the standard capture program.

After looking through the DAM book in the bookstore today it gives a significant portion of the book to Bridge, but no real other professional RAW solutions and no mention of C1.

I was wondering if anyone has developed a good workflow using iView and C1 together?

I've read the pdf iView wrote on the topic, but I'd be interested in someone that has real experience on the subject.   

Thanks in advance.
PPK

[peterkrogh]

PPK,
the problem is that there are no real good workflow solutions for C1, at least compared to Bridge.  The reason is that C1 has not yet implemented DNG support.  If they would just do this, they would open themselves to a great "straight-line" workflow where you don't need to complicate the workflow with batched out TIFF or JPEG files.

You can cobble something together, but there is no solution where the work you do in C1 is visible to other applications - without the creation of an entire derivative set of JPEG or TIFF files.

If you like the C1 conversion, CALL THEM AND TELL THEM TO SUPPORT DNG!!!!  Then everything in my book will work for C1.
Peter

[arossphoto]

I'm anxiously awaiting my copy of your book from amazon, but I also prefer Capture One to Camera Raw for several different reasons. I didn't think your choice of raw conversion software would play that big of a role in your approach to DAM. Now I'm a bit concerned.

Maybe I should read the book first, but is C1 really incompatible with your workflow? I can set up Bridge to open RAW files in C1, so surely there must be ways to make it work.

Thanks,

Andrew

[crashbowman]

Andrew,

I just want to point out that I now agree with the things Peter said in his post.  Programs that do not support DNG mess things up.  In my opinion, DNG is the ONLY solution for DAM work with RAW files.  If you want to deal with XMP sidecars I guess that is an option, but I still think you are stuck with Adobe products. 

I tried for a long time to stay away from DNG, but every workflow I developed just was not sound.  I want to do work now and not have to do it again later.  This book really made me think hard about a lot of things.  At times I would question in my mind the things Peter said, but in the end I always understood where he was coming from.  I think you will find the same after reading the book.

John

[ppk]

Isn't part of the problem that DNG isn't universally accepted as the future file format?
The other problem is that Capture One is a superior product over Bridge for raw conversion.

Right now I'm too weary of converting my entire library to DNG, if in the meantime they have CR3 or CR4, which makes DNG somehow incompatible.  Or what if the technology changes so much that we need a DNG2 or such?  What if Adobe's idea of DNG never becomes universally accepted?  The fear of changing my original file format is too great.

I will know for sure though that CR2 and beyond will be supported by the manufacturer.

Therefore, I have to find a solution where C1 and iView an co-exist in a great working atmosphere, but until then I guess I'm searching?

Isn't the real problem not with Capture One, but more with the camera manufacturer's not producing a universal 'negative' straight out of the camera?

PPK

[crashbowman]

Isn't the real problem not with Capture One, but more with the camera manufacturer's not producing a universal 'negative' straight out of the camera?

PPK

I believe the problem is with both.  Yes, the manufacturer should be producing a universal negative straight out of the camera, but I also feel that there is no reason that C1, Bibble, and any other RAW converter should not accept DNG files.  In my opinion they are just as valid of a RAW format as CR2 or NEF at this point and DNG accepts embedded meta data.  Many people are turned off of DNG until the manufacturer starts to produce them out of the camera, however at this point I am more turned off of RAW converters that refuse to support DNG.  I think it is a very short time before there are as many DNG files out there in use as are CR2 or NEF.

John

[peterkrogh]

Right now, there is no great answer to the C1 problem, other than to get them to support DNG.  If they can be convinced of this, then we really start down the path of making DNG a universal solution to RAW file archiving.  Right now, only Aperture annd RSP can open an Adobe-created DNG, but surely others will follow.

A few comments:

I understand the reluctance to convert to DNG.  If you like C1, then you lock yourself out of the application.  Getting them to support DNG would be the best answer, in my opinion.  You could also forgo having iView see your RAW file adjustments, embed the RAW file in the DNG, or make a dual image archive - RAW and C1 created JPEGs.  None of these is ideal.

I was at a discussion at PMA this last week, and Chuck Westfall from Canon opened the door to a possible future where Canon could create software that archives CR2 files as DNG.  He said market pressure would be the thing that could help bring this about.

Even if the DNG spec needed to be updated to DNG2 at some time in the future, adobe has committed to a migration solution.  I personally trust that they will come up with this solution if necessary. 

Peter

[Tuomas_K]

Here's a quote from the Phase One Official User to User Forum, it's by a member of the Phase One staff:

" DNG support in Capture One is on the road map for late 2006. With this feature in place, you will be able to exchange RAW files with other applications such as Apple Aperture or Adobe Photoshop. "

A link to the forum: http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=1623&highlight=dng

What do you think of this?

[Rick McCleary]

Here's a quote from the Phase One Official User to User Forum, it's by a member of the Phase One staff:

" DNG support in Capture One is on the road map for late 2006. With this feature in place, you will be able to exchange RAW files with other applications such as Apple Aperture or Adobe Photoshop. "

A link to the forum: http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=1623&highlight=dng

What do you think of this?

I think this would be great.  But for it to happen, we need to be vocal and let Phase One know that if they support DNG, we'll support them.

Last week (2/26), Phase One announced a partnership with iView.  Together, the two companies are offering a discount on a Capture One/iView bundle.  I can only hope that this foecasts DNG support since DNG is realy at the core of a lot of iVIew's functionality in how it handles RAW files. 

But hope only gets us so far.  Action is required.  Here is the name and email of Capture One's VP of Sales and Marketing:

Trine Voss
tvo@phaseone.dk

I would encourage everyone to email her expressing your interest in seeing DNG support by Capture One (sooner than later!).  I just sent her an email this morning.  If anyone would like to see the text of my email, I'd be happy to share it.

Rick

[danaltick]

Interesting topic.  I''ve never tried C1.  To date, I've only used ACR for my RAW conversions.  However, I would be hard pressed to think there is anything out there that could convert my CR2 files any better than ACR.  I wonder what Thomas Knoll would think of this.

DNG is the only open standard currently in existence for the RAW format, and it's supported by one of the most successful software companies in the industry with an unbelievable track record.  I honestly believe Adobe developed this not for their benefit, but for ours.  I believe it's only a matter of time before the camera manufacturers adopt it.  Also, I know ACR has to have the strongest backing and most research of any RAW converter out there.  I expect it to only improve with time.  It would take a lot for me to switch to something else.  That's my take on it anyway.

Dan

[ppk]

hi danaltick

i dont' think anyone is trying to convince you to switch programs.  if acr is working for you then that is great.

there are many reasons why i prefer c1 to acr.  the two main reasons are that i can shoot tethered to the computer via c1, and my clients can view the images as i shoot. the second is that my stock agency, jupiter images, did a side by side comparison with acr, c1, and a few others and there was a noticable difference in the way each program converted the raw images.  c1 tended to have better tonal gradations, (i.e. less banding), and the detail was a little more enhanced and brought out in c1.  i believe these two reasons to be the main factors why c1 is used as the standard capture and conversion software in most digital rental studios here in nyc.   

acr though, is better in bringing out detail in shadow areas or correcting for a badly exposed image on the user end.

so whatever you feel good about is what you should stick with in my opinion.

it's good to hear that iView partnered with c1, and i hope that would mean a better connection in the way the two programs work together.

thanks.

ppk

[danaltick]

Hi ppk,

Wow!  I didn't know iView partnered with C1...interesting.  I use iView and like it very much.  I see that mentioned now above.

It sounds like C1 meets your tethering requirements; which I don't have.  USB2.0 is plenty fast enough for me.  I just swap cards and keep shooting while waiting for the other one to download.  I can understand though why you might need instant viewing capability.

Here's a quote taken from this article http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/software/camera-raw.shtml

What About Capture One?
Naturally anyone with a Canon 1D or 1Ds will now be asking, how does Camera Raw compare to Capture One? I started using both programs back in late November and so I have quite a bit of experience with each of them. Frankly, my preference is for Capture One because I find the workflow to be superior and the previews larger. But my guess is that when the RAW conversion capabilities of Camera RAW are fully integrated into Photoshop these advantages may well be reduced. Whether the $400 price differential is worthwhile for you is something that you'll have to answer for yourself. If you own any other camera I can tell you that I know of no other RAW file conversion program or utility that can hold a candle to Camera Raw in terms of speed or convenience.

This article was written in 2003.  ACR has come a long way since then, but I don't see any recent comparison reviews.

By the way, if you haven't already and you get a chance to read Bruce Fraser's new book, "Real World Camera Raw", it will truly enlighten you to the benefits of Raw and how to maximize its potential.  I gave a brief synopsis of the book here http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=265.msg1410#msg1410.

Dan

[roberte]

Hi,

First I dl, backup, sort, rename and caption in Photo Mechanic. Capture One Pro on Windows works well with iView. On the Mac and LE versions embedded IPTC isn't parsed so a workaround has to be found. Either sync the RAW and converted TIFF/JPEG metadata in iView via scripting, or leave annotating until the end.

If and when Phase One support DNG this will make life easier for DAM. But their promised support for DNG is a little hazy at best. Is it only their DB or will C1 read DNG? I doubt they'll ever write DNG.

FWIW I select the RAW converter based on the job and output. I like ACR, Bibble, C1, Nikon Capture, and I've tried Lightroom, DxO, RSE, RAW Photodesk, RAW Developer, and too many more to remember! They all have different workflows and conversions but the first four are the only ones remaining on my machine. I still resist adopting DNG holus bolus because so few RAW converters I like handle it.

-- Robert.

[peterkrogh]

Robert,
Any particular reason that you think C1 won't write a DNG?  Politics or engineering?

I strongly agree with Rick that C1 users should make their desires for DNG known to the company.  Even if they don't write one at first, if they could read DNG, that would be a great step. 
Peter

[roberte]

Hi Peter,

In Phase One's case I suspect mostly politics. They encrypt their own RAW files and offer no documentation, their competitor Leaf output DNG, and they're convinced that C1 is the only RAW converter you need. They don't appear to consider DAM as it's outside their area of expertise. Their forum has a long post asking where the DNG support is, as announced in this October 2004 press release (PDF).

Speaking to several software developers it would be both engineering and politics hindering widespread DNG adoption. What's stopping iView having a convert to DNG option? Outputting to DNG doesn't appear a trivial matter, and much more complicated than save as TIFF.

-- Robert.