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Expression Media colors don't match in Photoshop?
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Author Topic: Expression Media colors don't match in Photoshop?  (Read 6867 times)
ralphpaonessa
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« on: January 31, 2009, 06:32:31 PM »

I've just noticed that the colors I see for some images in Expressions Media 2 don't quite match the same file viewed in Adobe Photoshop CS3, Bridge, aand Adobe Camera Raw. For some DNG files I just created (from Canon CR2 raw files, using Adobe DNG Converter), as well as for a JPEG (created by EM2 from the DNG; it has the sRGB profile embedded). The images look slightly warmer in EM2. To summarize:

- The DNG and the JPEG created from it match each other in EM2.
- The DNG, JPEG, and original CR2 file match each other in the CS3 programs.
- The images viewed in EM2 are warmer than in CS3.
- But ... a PSD file seems to look the same in EM2 and CS3.

I am running Windows Vista with an Apple 23" Cinema Display monitor calibrated with Eye-One Match 3. I have the Ardfry Codec installed so I can view my DNG files in EM2; at first I thought it was a DNG issue; but now I see it with JPEG files as well.

This is annoying! An idea why it's happening???

Thanks.
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Ralph Paonessa
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peterkrogh
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 06:45:02 PM »

Ralph,
Is the Media view different, or only the thumbnail view?
Richard Anderson recently alerted me to that fact.
Peter

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ralphpaonessa
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 07:09:45 PM »

The thumbnail and media view appear identical to my eye in EM2, and both are warmer than in CS3.

In Preferences > Media Rendering > Images, I have "Color match" turned on. However, turning it off and restarting EM2 doesn't seem to make any difference.

BTW, in Preferences > Media Rendering > Raw, I select "Use embedded preview (if available)," which I assume enables me to see the embedded DNG preview. If I turn this off and try to go to the Media View for a DNG, EM2 consistently crashes. (Turning this off has no effect on viewing a JPEG file, as I'd expect.)
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Ralph Paonessa
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ralphpaonessa
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 07:35:40 PM »

Is the Media view different, or only the thumbnail view?
Richard Anderson recently alerted me to that fact.

Peter, what was it that Richard found?
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Ralph Paonessa
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peterkrogh
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 10:37:29 PM »

Ralph,
Richard found that the thumbnails are not color managed and pick up the monitor profile.  If the monitor is a wide gamut monitor as he is using, the difference is pretty significant. For smaller gamut monitors, the differences are slight. The Media View should show a color-managed view that matches Photoshop, regardless of monitor.

Not sure how to explain what you're seeing.  I can point Richard to this discussion and maybe that can inform his discussion with the Expression team.

As to the crashes, that probably has to do with rendering hte raw file data.  If you don't use the embedded preview, you're asking the computer to render the raw data in the DNG, and depending on the imaging tools that are installed, it might be having problems parsing the file. (Obviously, crashing is not acceptable).

Can you post all relevant system details - OS, EM2 version (SP1?),Quicktime or WIC?  Not sure what the Ardfry CODEC is, but that may be related.

Peter


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Richard Anderson
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 08:36:49 AM »

Ralph,

We are using Mac Leopard and Expressions Media 2. Try this, make a few Jpegs from DNG files using Photoshop or Bridge. Convert the Jpegs to sRGB and make sure the sRGB tag is embedded. Load the DNG files and Jpegs into an Expressions catalog. Enlarge the thumbnails to be close to the media view size. On Mac Leopard- we observe that the Jpeg files look the same (and correct) in thumbnail and media view. Expressions is clearly reading the sRGB tag and applying it. The DNG thumbnails (which are using the full size embedded RGB Jpegs made via the DNG converter) are over-saturated- indicating that they are picking up the system profile- which in our case is the Eizo monitor profile- which is 97% of Adobe RGB (1998). By contrast, The DNG media view dispaly is correct as Expressions is seeing the sRGB tag. The DNG media view matches the test Jpeg thumbnails and media view. The only files that are not viewing properly are the DNG thumbnails. Same is true for Tiff files- both thumbnail and media view are correctly reading the embedded profile tags. Its just an issue with DNG files.

I have reported this bug to Microsoft.

Regards,

Richard Anderson
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ralphpaonessa
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 04:16:15 PM »

Richard -- I might be seeing something different, but still involving how EM2 handles color profiles, including the monitor profile.

I have made copies of the same image as CR2, DNG, PSD, TIF, JPG created by EM2, and JPG created by PSD. All of this is Windows Vista with EM2 SP1. For each file type, the thumbnail and media view in EM2 appear identical in color. When I view these images in Photoshop CS3 or Bridge, they also appear identical. The problem is that when viewed in EM2, the colors don't match among these. I don't expect the CR2 file to match in EM2, because it has beend adjusted in Adobe Camera Raw and EM2 doesn't see those adjustments. But I'd expect all the others to be consistent.

In EM2 Preferences, I've unchecked "Use built-in thumbnails (if available)," and checked "Color match" and "Use embedded preview (if available)" in Media Rendering.

The only image in EM2 that matches what I see in Photoshop and Bridge is the PSD file. Furthermore, I think that EM2 is correctly applying the monitor profile to the PSD file, but is NOT applying it to the DNG, JPG, or TIF files. Here's my reasoning:

I attempted to make a "bad" monitor profile with Eye-One Match 3 as follows: I started the display profile procedure, but part way through I placed an FL-D filter between the sensor and the display (it's one of those somewhat magenta filters for correcting for fluorescent lights that I had handy). The "corrected" display is thus way off.

I had some trouble doing this. At first, I simply did the entire monitor calibration with the filter in place. I'm by no means a color management expert, butI think that Eye-One Match 3 did most of its correction for the filter in the LUT (Look-Up Table) of the video card, and that the resultant monitor profile was no very from normal. I nfer this because my nVidia display card has a Control Panel where, under "Adjust desktop color settings," I can click Restore Defaults. When I do this, the garish green color of the display goes back to "normal." I infer that this is resetting the LUT.

In the Windows Vista Color Management panel, I can change the default monitor profile, and then look in Photoshop (which I'm assuming is correctly color managed), and see if the image colors change. It is necessary (at least in my tests) to close and re-launch Photoshop (or Bridge) to see the effects of changing the default monitor profile. When the entire monitor calibration was done through the filter, changing the monitor profile has no effect that eye can see (it might be subtle). But when I re-profiled as above, inserting the filter part way through the calibratin process, I got a "bad" monitor profile, and the effects of using this are obvious in Photoshop and Bridge.

The point of all that was to create a bad monitor profile whose effects would be obvious when I turned it on or off. I think I succeeded.

With that in hand, I started playing around. With the bad profile set as the default monitor profile (and the LUT reset to default), here's what I see:

(1) All the images in Photoshop and Bridge respond as I'd expect with correctly functioning color management: their colors shift when the bad monitor profile is used.

(2) Internet Explorer, which is not color managed, shows no effect when viewing the JPG file, which is what I'd expect. The color looks "normal."

(3) Windows Photo Gallery apears to be correctly color-managed -- the images change depending on the monitor profile, and the colors match thos in Photoshop and Bridge with the same monitor profile.

(4) The only image in EM2 that matches the colors in Photoshop and Bridge is the PSD file. Everything else displays in a way that suggests to my eye that EM2 is not adjusting these images (thumnails and media previews) for the effects of the monitor profile. They all look pretty close to normal (i.e., what I'd get with no monitor calibration).

So, am I correct in my conclusion that EM2 is messing up color management and not using the monitor profile correctly for some files types??
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Ralph Paonessa
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peterkrogh
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 07:12:42 PM »

Ralph,
Are you using Quicktime  or WIC for your rendering with EM2?
Peter
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ralphpaonessa
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 09:06:00 PM »

Good question! Here's what I *think* I'm using:

I've installed the following third-party codecs which should use/enable WIC for these file types:

- DNG codec from Ardfry (www.ardfry.com)
- Canon RAW codec (for CR2, etc.)

I'm sure EM2 is using the Ardfry DNG codec, because it's presence effects how EM2 renders DNG files.

There is no PSD codec that I'm aware of (Ardfry is working on one); so I assume EM2 uses Quicktime for PSD. I'm sure of it, in fact, because at one point I uninstalled Quicktime and couldn't view PSD files in EM2.

I'm not sure if/how WIC interacts with JPG and TIF. Do you?
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Ralph Paonessa
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ralphpaonessa
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 09:16:29 PM »

Another observation: It appears the EM2 builds its PSD thumbnails with "awareness" of the default monitor profile. But when I change to a different profile, the thumbnails don't change in EM2 -- unless I rebuilt them. However, the Media View (which always takes a few seconds to generate) seems to correctly take into account the monitor profile when displaying the Media View.

So it's possible to have the PSD thumbnails (built under an old profile) not match the Media View -- until the thumbnails are rebuilt.

That's interesting: I would think the "proper" color management use of the monitor profile would be to adjust the display of thumbnails "in real time"/"on the fly." Instead, does EM2 build thumbnails that take into account the monitor profile at the time, but aren't truly "color managed" and that become "out of date" if the monitor profile changes??
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Ralph Paonessa
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ralphpaonessa
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 01:05:06 PM »

Microsoft just announced Service Pack 2 for EM2 that includes a fix for color management. According to MS, "People with high gamut monitors will especially notice that the colors in Expression Media match those in other color managed applications." I await with bated breath.

I posted a summary of the fixes in the DAM EM forum at Expressions Media Service Pack 2 announced.
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Ralph Paonessa
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