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Author Topic: idImager 3  (Read 27704 times)
havezet
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« on: December 02, 2005, 02:11:50 AM »

Hi Peter,

First of all I would like to congratulate you on your DAM-book's release. I have read the demo chapter and went through the index. I am definately impressed and will buy a copy shortly.

As the developer of idImager it is my primary goal to support future proof open architectures where possible. That is exactly why idImager V3 now adds full XMP support (read/write and extensible). This means you should be able to read all data from other XMP aware applications, including Bridge and including unknown or private schemas.

I am very curious what you think of this new version. You can always contact me for more info.

Regards

Hertwig van Zwietering
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 09:01:56 PM by peterkrogh » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2005, 05:48:37 AM »

Hertwig,
My understanding is that idImager is a pretty capable program. I have made an arbitrary decision to only spend time evaluating applications that work on both Mac and Windows.

That said, since I have you on the line here, a few questions.

Do you support DNG, including the use of the full-size embedded preview?  Can you extract and convert it, resulting in a file tagged as sRGB?  DOes it look like output from Camera Raw?

Do your Ratings use the same engine as Bridge, or are you tagging with some other syntax under the hood?

Can you write metadata back to RAW files?

I'd love a more in-depth tour of the software, but have no time to do a thorough evaluation myself.  Do you have evangelists/dealers here in the states? 

Peter
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havezet
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2005, 06:40:51 AM »

[...]
Do you support DNG, including the use of the full-size embedded preview?  Can you extract and convert it, resulting in a file tagged as sRGB?  DOes it look like output from Camera Raw?

Yes, idImager reads the small preview by default and you can preview the full image by developing it first.

Quote
Do your Ratings use the same engine as Bridge, or are you tagging with some other syntax under the hood?

Yes, idImager uses the same engine that Bridge uses for ratings. This info is read/stored from/to the XMP metadata.

Quote
Can you write metadata back to RAW files?

Yes, idImager can read XMP data and write it back to JPG, TIF, DNG, and optionally to other RAW files too. If this concerns a DNG RAW file, it can be stored embedded. Because RAW files like NEF/CR2/ORF/... are "closed" formats this option is disabled by default. With this option switched off, idImager will write the data to XMP sidecar files. If switched on, it will write the XMP embedded in the file. Another reason why I chose to disable this option by default is that some RAW converters will fail to reconvert once the file is altered. As far as I know right now that is only the case for Canon's DPP. I got positive responses back from Olympus users, Nikon users, ACR users. It is always best to try this first on a copy file.

Quote
I'd love a more in-depth tour of the software, but have no time to do a thorough evaluation myself.

No problem. I am always open to answer any question. There is more to the application than XMP that might attract your attention; like working with derivative versions and version place holders.

Quote
Do you have evangelists/dealers here in the states?

Right now I only sell the software through the internet for countries outside Holland but I am certainly open for dealers from outside Europe.

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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2005, 06:59:52 AM »

Hertwig,
Thanks for the thorough answers.  I very much like your approach.  It looks like idImager would indeed be a very good solution for Windows users.

I'm not 100% clear about the answer on DNG support.  Can you display the embedded preview at 100% from within the application, or do you have to export a file first?  How long does it take to see the full-res preview at 100%?

Have you done a matching test between the output of the DNG preview by idImager and output of the DNG itself by Camera Raw?  Do the RGB values come out within a point or two?

I have added idImager to the links page.

Peter
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havezet
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2005, 07:33:59 AM »

Hertwig,
Thanks for the thorough answers.  I very much like your approach.  It looks like idImager would indeed be a very good solution for Windows users.

I'm not 100% clear about the answer on DNG support.  Can you display the embedded preview at 100% from within the application, or do you have to export a file first?  How long does it take to see the full-res preview at 100%?

Have you done a matching test between the output of the DNG preview by idImager and output of the DNG itself by Camera Raw?  Do the RGB values come out within a point or two?

I have added idImager to the links page.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Yes, idImager can display the DNG at 100% without the need to convert it to a different format first. idImager converts the DNG using the DCRAW routines. The time it takes to develop a DNG file depends on the size of the file and configuration used. You can not do a comparison if you use different configs and DNG's.

I tested with some DNGs here, taken with a Canon 1Ds Mark-II and converted to DNG (about 14.5 MB)

Both files show the embedded preview <1 sec. At average the 100% view takes 18 seconds te develop. Again, these values mean nothing and can not be used for a direct comparison.

I have never did a direct compare between ACR results and idImager's for DNG images. I very much doubt that any RAW converter will generate equal output.

Could you tell me why you are so interested in the times and "equalness" of the results?

Hert
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2005, 08:48:39 AM »


I have never did a direct compare between ACR results and idImager's for DNG images. I very much doubt that any RAW converter will generate equal output.

Could you tell me why you are so interested in the times and "equalness" of the results?

Hert

This is a little hard to understand at first.  The embedded preview in the DNG file is a jpeg image that reflects all the adjustments you have made in CS2.  So if you have turned it to B&W, for instance, this image is in B&W.  By extracting this preview, you can produce a rendering of the file that matches exactly the adjustments you have made in Photoshop. (If you handle the profile correctly)

Of course you are correct that the rendering of any two RAW file conversion utilities will never exactly match.  And unless one converter can read and use the settings for the other converter, then the files may be wildly out of sync (B&W vs. Color, for instance).  This is why the proper extraction of the embedded preview - for proofing uses, which will be most uses, in general - is so important.

Make sense?
Peter
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havezet
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2005, 12:09:35 PM »

This is a little hard to understand at first.  The embedded preview in the DNG file is a jpeg image that reflects all the adjustments you have made in CS2.  So if you have turned it to B&W, for instance, this image is in B&W.  By extracting this preview, you can produce a rendering of the file that matches exactly the adjustments you have made in Photoshop. (If you handle the profile correctly)

Do I understand correctly and you say that there is also a large embedded preview? Up till now I have only found an embedded preview that is 340px (from the head). This is way to small for good color proofing. idImager is color aware and will also allow soft proofing, so if you can confirm there is a larger preview available, that would be great. Much better than using the small preview (which could be used only for thumb generating). If a large preview is available then idImager will show it correctly (once I found it) and take color spaces into account.

Looking forward for your response

Hert
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2005, 12:30:25 PM »

Hert,
Yes!  This is a huge workflow tool, that is little appreciated at the moment.  There are two additional previews that you are not using.  The "Medium" preview is 1024.  The Large is the FULL PIXEL DIMENSION of the file!

Please note, Camera Raw only applies all the corrections (sharpening, Chromatic Aberration, Noise Reduction, Calibrate)  to the Large Preview so it will be most accurate.

Refer to the DNG spec.

Peter
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2005, 09:35:23 PM »

Also note that the DNG needs to be built with the 3.1 or later of the DNG converter or Camera Raw to have the large preview, and preferences  need to be set to create it.  3.2 or later is HIGHLY recommended.
Peter
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havezet
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2005, 10:52:31 AM »

Hi Peter,

I received your book yesterday, so that was fast! Thank you and it's next to my bed now Smiley

Today I have studied the DNG specs again, but did not find a meta-tag entry that would point me to the location of the embedded preview. However, I did find the (medium and large) embedded preview but I found it while scanning the file. Speedwise, scanning the file is not the most optimal way of allocating the preview. Do you know if there is a pointing reference anywhere in the format that would allow me to find the preview faster? I also scanned for undocumented tags but there where none.

Thanks

Hert
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2005, 11:13:59 AM »

Hert,
That's beyond my area of expertise. You might want to contact Adobe and ask.  The ability to put the large preview in did not get implemented until 3.1 of the converter.
Peter
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havezet
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2005, 02:50:56 PM »

Hert,
That's beyond my area of expertise. You might want to contact Adobe and ask.  The ability to put the large preview in did not get implemented until 3.1 of the converter.
Peter

Peter,

No problem. At least I am able to extract and present the large preview now. Getting the right color profile was the tricky part. I guess that is why you asked me in a previous post if idImager was able to produce matching colors for DNG images.

Cheers

Hert
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2005, 04:12:44 PM »

Did you get it right? (Does it match)?  It is an sRGB file, although it is not tagged as such.  My test with iView was to make a conversion to sRGB with Camera Raw, and then paste in a conversion made by iView.  I put some densitometer crosshairs down, and then toggled visibility on and off in layers.  The iView file was very close (within 1 point on every spot I checked).

It took them a little while to get it right, but it works very well now.
Peter
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dheaton
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 10:27:03 AM »

Has anyone tried the idimager software?  Acording to the reviews it ranks as high as iview media pro and is only $59.  I have downloaded the trial but thought I would ask on here first.
Please let me know

Thanks
David
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dheaton
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2006, 10:28:21 AM »

Has anyone tried the idimager software?  Acording to the reviews it ranks as high as iview media pro and is only $59.  I have downloaded the trial but thought I would ask on here first.
Please let me know

Thanks
David
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