If I use CS3 Camera Raw to modify JPEG images, should I then save as DNG?

[dicksimon]

I believe this is the only way to keep the edits 'nondestructive', the same way edits to a RAW file would be treated - as instructions on how the file should be displayed, rather than changes to the file itself.  Is this understanding correct?  THANKS

Dick Simon

[peterkrogh]

Dick,
You're on track here.  This is going to be an interesting rollout of understanding as CS3 and Lightroom become more used.

DNG does in fact offer the ability to save the source image, the instructions, and the rendered version.  Nothing else can do this for you, if you are using CS3 or Lightroom.  At the moment, however, the DNG spec requires that you save the source data (the original JPEG data) as TIFF data, and therefore makes the file much larger.

I'm hoping we'll see a DNG spec upgrade before too long that will be a little more friendly to JPEG originals.
Peter

[danaltick]

I was just editing a JPEG in Camera Raw.  I clicked "Done" to save the changes.  It is saving the changes because I can bring it back into Camera Raw and the changes are there; however, no sidecar is created.  If I then turn off the CS3 camera raw preference for JPEGS and bring the file directly into PS, the ACR changes are not applied.  Can someone tell me where these ACR changes are getting stored; apparently not in the file or a sidecar.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to bring JPEGS through the workflow making ACR or RapidFixer adjustments and having those adjustments get stored in the archive non-destructively either as a sidecar or DNG.  I'm just now looking at this, so I haven't even tried ingesting JPEGS with IIP.  Does IIP create the sidecars for JPEGS and do RapidFixer and iView use them?  I guess my question is, is there a seamless JPEG workflow analogous to the Raw/DNG workflow?  I'm sure this has probably been discussed before and I just missed it.  Thanks.

Dan

[danaltick]

Well, I played around with the JPEG workflow this morning.  IIP creates the sidecar files fine; however, Bridge doesn't appear to use them.  iView does use them.  If I load the JPEG's into ACR and save them out as DNG's, the DNG conversion does not use the sidecars, but does create the preview for iView.  The files are much larger due to Tiff discussed above, but I could live with that.  As it stands, this creates a catch-22 situation with the JPEG workflow.  If you don't do the DNG conversion, iView doesn't get the ACR adjustments in it's thumbnails and media views, but does get the metadata in the sidecars.  If you do the DNG conversion, iView gets the ACR adjustments in the DNG preview, but doesn't get the sidecar info.  Given this, I think the best approach would be to go ahead and use the DNG method and do all the metalogging to the DNG's in iView.  The price you pay is more disk space usage, but disk space is cheap.  I would probably name the files something like altick_070906_1234_jpg.dng.

Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
While the basic writing for Parametric editing of JPEG files is in place, the circle is not really closed yet.  You can hack at it now, but it will not be elegant.
Sorry.
Peter

[danaltick]

Peter,

Thanks for the warning.  I'm inclined to agree.  Hopefully one day this will get ironed out.

Dan

[robcar]

I've been playing with ACR conversions of JPEGs in CS3 and there are still some kinks.  Here's what I'm discovering:

If you open JPEGs in ACR, correct and save as DNGs, the resulting files get large and you no longer see the thumbnails, previews or metadata n Bridge -- just DNG symbols.  However, these import fine into IVMP/Expression.

If you open JPEGs in ACR, correct and just click DONE, you'll get normal looking thumbs, previews and metadata.  The JPEG files stay small but none of the corrections will show up in IVMP/Expression. 

If you open JPEGs in ACR, correct , click OPEN into Photoshop, make any small Photoshop correction and save back as a JPEG, you'll get the corrected views in both Bridge and IVMP/Expression.   However, I can't get a Photoshop Action to do this automatically for some reason.

My JPEGs are from scanned slides so I'm not overly concerned about destructive editing.   I just want some good looking images in IVMP/Expression so I can sell them as stock.  And the new ACR is a wonderful tool for grooming those JPEGs.

Still a mystery - why some JPEGs from scans won't open in ACR but go directly into PHotoshop even when the preferences are all checked to use ACR.

rob cardillo
www.robcardillo.com

[peterkrogh]

Rob,
Not that you want to add another program to the workflow, but I'm making my JPEG>DNGs in Lightroom.  (I've only needed to do this a few times.)
Peter

[BeckyMalaria]

Apologies for posting in an old thread. Is it true that this issue still exists? I would like to be able to work with JPEG files in ACR and then move into cataloguing with Expression Media. The PIE edits I made in ACR are not showing up in the Expression thumbnails. I'm not opposed to converting them (although it may prove too cumbersome) but can't even find a way to do that! The DNG converter doesn't recognize my JPEG files. We don't have Lightroom.

-Becky

[BeckyMalaria]

As a little follow-up, if I save the JPEGs as TIFFs (using Bridge, through Tools>Photoshop>Image Processing) then I see the PIE edits in the TIFFs when I import them into Expression. However, if I then made a further edit in ACR on the TIFF, it doesn't show up in Expression. I guess I would need to re-export another TIFF for every editing session?

This part of the equation was all a lot easier in Picasa!

-Becky

[BeckyMalaria]

I accidentally posted this in a different thread. Here's where it was meant to go...

---------

One more from me!

I sort of found a way to do this, posted about here:

http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=4878.msg27420#msg27420

Now I am trying to get my ACR edits, made in Bridge to the DNG, to show up in Expression. I started with a JPEG, converted it to DNG through Camera Raw with no changes.

I then made obvious edits in ACR to the DNG in Bridge/Camera Raw, clicked Done. The thumbnail in Bridge updated.

The folder was not yet in my EM2 catalog, so I imported it. The thumbnail for the DNG did not reflect my edits. I tried Rebuild Item; no change.

If I make the PIE edits in Camera Raw PRIOR to saving the image as DNG, they do show in the thumbnail when importing to EM2. However, if I make a further PIE edit in Camera Raw, and click Done to dismiss ACR, the thumbnail doesn't change in EM2. I tried Rebuild Item; no change.

I then removed the folder from the catalog and re-imported. My original PIE edits showed up, but not the second set. Again, no change with Rebuild Item.

If I choose Save Image within ACR (instead of "Done") I get a second DNG -- it doesn't replace the first one -- and this second DNG does reflect my most recent PIE edited in the EM2 thumbnail.

So, all of this is basically evidence in favor of Peter's recommendation in the DAM book that you make your edits before cataloguing in EM2; once they're in the catalogue, that is the "permanent" home and if you make PIE edits later it should be treated as a derivative file workflow.

Again... Picasa sucks for a lot of reasons... but for PIE editing on the fly, albeit with a limited toolset, it was super smooth... grass is always greener, I guess.

-Becky