My-First-DAM-Migration Log (stardate 0601.10)

[peterkrogh]

Hey folks, finally got some time to take a look...you've been busy. Here are a few points:

1. I do not think that Bridge slideshows will reflect the sharpening, so it's not surprising that the iView slideshow looks better.

2. Dan, I don't understand why the complexity in dividing directory structure between RAW and JPEG and Personal and Jobs.  I'd just lump them all in together, and use catalog software to sort it out.

3. As to keeping Originals and Derivatives separate, the best reason that I can think of is that often, images don't get made into derivatives until sometime after (sometimes LONG after) the RAW files have been put away.  If you ALWAYS wanted to keep derivatives and RAW together, you will create some backup tap-dancing later, as you need to co-mingle old and new work.  THis is particularly true of personal work, for me.
Peter

[danaltick]

Alan & Peter,

First I would like to say thank you for taking the time to read through this thread and offer feedback.  Hopefully this will serve as a good supplemental reference for others.

I will attempt to answer your questions in order.

Alan,

You seem to be using different folders for "Personal" vs "Job". Is there a reasons for the physical separation? Could you not just keyword to differentiate, or use a virtual set, or are you using different catalogs for personal and job?

Yes and no:  Yes, you could just use keywords for personal and job, and I may actually do that in addition to using the folders.  And no, I am not using different catalogs for personal and job.  Let's take an example here.  Look at figure 3-15 on p. 74.  Do you see how Peter recurringly postpends categories with his jobname description folders (e.g. Masters, Delivery, etc.).  I consider that recurring effort that can be eliminated through the use of a universal archive template like the one I've created.  Note that the categories of this template are actually a controlled vocabulary depicting the format of the images.  All digital images have a format; therefore, it's possible to create a format template that should work for all images.  This will serve two purposes: 1) It removes the recurring postpending effort 2) It compartmentalizes those images for easy access outside of your catalog.  For example, what if you ever wanted to get to some of those images using Rudy's IP in Bridge.  Now you can find them easily.  Or what if you want to just deliver a folder of proofs to a client who doesn't have the catalog and you don't have time to set that up for him.  I just feel that some structure in the archive is worthwhile and can eliminate recurring effort.

You are using different folders for RAW and jpeg originals. I am currently doing this as well and it does result in some simplification. I am wondering if you ever shoot in RAW+jpeg mode on your camera? If yes, where would you put your jpegs that match the raws? Just so you know, what I am doing is keeping those jpegs with the raws, and images shot only in jpeg in a separate jpeg folder. Since I shoot 85% in raw only, 14% in jpeg only, and maybe 1% in raw+jpeg, it is not something I worry too much about, so the question is more for intellectual completeness.

I actually do not intend to shoot RAW+JPEG, but let's say I did.  Here's what I would probably do:  Put the RAW's in th RAW hierarchy and the JPEG's in the parallel JPEG heirarchy in the same respective subfolder.  I would give each job the same job description folder name and probably postpend each folder with the something like _R+J, to let me know there is a corresponding JPEG/RAW folder....make sense?  I would avoid combining my RAW's and JPEG's at all cost.  These files would also be split up and moved through the working files structure in their respective subfolders (i.e. RAW and JPEG).

You have a "Proofs" folder as a subfolder (once removed) of "Derivatives". Since you are using the embedded full size preview in DNG, would you not just use those for proofing purposes, or do you have any specific requirements that would trigger the need for a proofs folder? Do you intent to keep those proofs long term, or are they throw away once their purpose has been served?

Yes I am using the embedded full size preview; however, when it comes time to make proofs, I will most likely be using the Convert Image Files script in iView or maybe Rudy's IP in Bridge to size and sample those previews appropriately for the given print size.  For example, if I want to make a 4x6, I would resample to 4x6 inches at 240dpi, and the proof print would be named something like this, "altick_060116_3456_4x6_240dpi.jpg".  This file would be put in an appropriately named subfolder under the proofs/prints subfolder.  Now I do not have to postpend this subfolder with "_proofs_prints", and I can easily go to this folder outside the catalog if necessary and see all my proof-prints together quickly.  I will of course also catalog these files in iView and delete them from there if I so choose in the future....nothing preventing me from doing that.  I may even add a "proofs" keyword to them if I feel a need to embed that information.  You basically have the best of both worlds....make sense?  Oh, almost forgot; these proofs would also be created using the sRGB color space; not the ProPhotoRGB space embedded in my previews.  And yes, I use ProPhotoRGB.  I feel it's more future-proof as printer spaces widen over time.  I just make sure I always soft-proof my Masters with gamut-proofing to make sure I stay within the ProPhotoRGB gamut....not a problem.


Peter,

1. I do not think that Bridge slideshows will reflect the sharpening, so it's not surprising that the iView slideshow looks better.

I think you're right.  I'm not so sure the Bridge previews do as well, and if they do, they don't appear to show it as pronounced as iView's.  Don't get me wrong though; those iVeiw previews look great with an ACR sharpening of 75!  I'm tempted to try 100.

2. Dan, I don't understand why the complexity in dividing directory structure between RAW and JPEG and Personal and Jobs.  I'd just lump them all in together, and use catalog software to sort it out.

My rational behind this is explained in my answers to Alan.  If you're not convinced after reading it, please let me know why.  Keep in mind this is my first attempt at this.  Also, if I want very quick access to those subfolders for copying to, I can easily create shortcuts to them on my desktop for ones I might be using frequently for a given job or set of jobs.  I just believe a properly designed template eliminates recurring effort and better compartmentalizes your archive for those times when the catalog may not be available or possible.

3. As to keeping Originals and Derivatives separate, the best reason that I can think of is that often, images don't get made into derivatives until sometime after (sometimes LONG after) the RAW files have been put away.  If you ALWAYS wanted to keep derivatives and RAW together, you will create some backup tap-dancing later, as you need to co-mingle old and new work.  THis is particularly true of personal work, for me.

I'm really not sure I understand the question here.  My derivatives and originals are separate.  True, they are in the same bucket, but they are parallel, allowing them all the same freedom as if they were on separate harddrives.  By doing it this way, I'm able to initally only have to purchase two harddrives instead of four and fully utilize them with no wasted space.  I could of course have divided the drives into two partitions each, but then I stand a chance of wasting considerable space if my RAW partition fills up long before my Derivatives partition or vice versa.  In otherwords, I'm really left with only two choices: four drives... or this way.  Hope that makes sense.

Thanks again,
Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
A couple of things.

In general, I think what you outline is very good.  A little more complicated than what I do, but fundamentally sound.

1. I don't see the point of saving the proofs (the 4x6 you speak about).  Since these can be easily generated at any time, I don't save these files.  I consider them to be temporary files for transfer to some other place, like the minilab.

2. The embedded DNG preview is ALWAYS sRGB, despite the color profile you select for output from Camera Raw.  That selection is only for output.

3. You will find that it is 3 to 10 times faster to create JPEGs from iView than from the Image Processor.  They will look identical if the destination space is sRGB.  No reason to do this through Bridge.

4. The Bridge previews do not show sharpening.

5. The issue about separating Original from Derivatives was in answer to... I don't know.  Brain fart.
Peter

[danaltick]

Peter,

I don't really see the point in saving the 4x6 type proofs either, but if you're going to create them, you need a place to store them until you delete them right; so why not the catalog.  And if you're going to put them in the catalog, then you might as well put them in the archive.  And if you're going to put them in the archive, then you might as well have a place for them.  But you are right, I would probably delete these before burning and moving to the next bucket, but the template is there to hold them, if only temporarily.   And if I do for some unknown reason decide to hang on to some of them, I have that option.  Anyway, that's kind of how I see it.  Also, these JPEG's would be very small, so disk space really isn't an issue.  If I'm overlooking something here that would create unnecessary work, please let me know.  My intent with all this is to save time, not use more of it.

Didn't know that about the DNG preview being sRGB.  Thanks for the info.

As far as the IP goes, I was just trying to come up with some example why you might want to access the archive directly.  I intend to use the iView way whenever possible because it has direct access to the catalog, and of course, now that you've told me, is much faster.  I just haven't started playing around with the iView way yet, and wasn't sure if it had all the same capabilities as the Bridge IP.  Sounds like it does.  Thanks for the info.  That's actually on my iist of things to test (number 8 to be exact ).

Thanks for the info on the Bridge sharpening too.

And who knows, maybe someone down the line will actually benefit from my answer to your brain fart LOL.

Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
As far as saving the 4x6, I would say, yes, it DOES make extra work.  It will create a duplicate in your catalog that does not have a purpose, over the long term. 

I would suggest that you create these only as you need them, do your business with them, and then delete.

The only time I would say that's different would be if the batch-converts were the delivery file for a client.  I save these as a business record, so that I can reference exactly what I delivered to the client, in case there were a problem.
Peter

[danaltick]

Peter,

Good point.  Makes sense.  I will remove the proofs/prints folder from the template first chance I get.

What about the other proofs (i.e. web, contacts, email).  Do you keep these?

For the client batch-converts then, I would be storing those in the Derivatives/Jobs/Delivery folder...correct?

Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
I keep Web Galleries because they are very small and useful.  I do not catalog them.

I keep contacts also, and do catalog them.

I do not keep email peel-offs.

I have a directory for Web Galleries.  In 3 years of pro digital work, this is a pretty small folder (several gigs.)

I keep the delivery files in a Delivery Files folder in the derivative files drive and archive.

Derivative/DVD_012/Client X Project Y Delivery Files

You need to get iView up and running before you do too much more.  You are doing more with the directory than you need to, and that is because you have not implemented the catalog structure.

Peter

[danaltick]

Peter,

Makes sense, sounds good.  I will go ahead and trim the directory structure and keep those files out of the catalog and in separate directories.  That does sound easier.

Once that's done, that should do it for the directory structure.

This is your way:
Derivative/DVD_012/Client X Project Y Delivery Files

And this is my way:
Media_001/Derivative/Job/Delivery/Client X Project Y Files

I think we're really both doing the same thing, just in a different way.  Which is easier?.... probably about the same.

Dan

[danaltick]

Peter,

There is one difference between the iView IP and the Bridge IP that I can see.  The iView IP does not appear to support Photoshop Actions.  I used this with the Bridge IP to add sharpening when batching proofs.  That's not needed now with the already sharpened DNG previews though.  However, one problem I've encountered when sending proofs off to a mini consumer lab for printing with sRGB printers is, the prints will sometimes come out too dark and the shadows will get clipped too much.  I don't have this problem with my color-managed deliverables because I use the black point compensation, work in a color-managed environment, and use a pro lab; but I believe the lower-cost sRGB consumer printers tend to clip at around gray level 20 and 240 to 245.  My plan to deal with this was to create an action in Photoshop using the levels adjustment layer and bring the output sliders in to around 20 and 240 for these proofs.  I can run this action with Rudy's IP but not the iView IP.  I was wondering how you handle this problem, or if it is even a problem for you.  I really don't won't to build this levels adjustment into the DNG preview if I can help it.  Thanks.

Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
I'd experiment before building the structure and workflow.

Even if you do want to run an action on the files (like CaptionMaker, for instance, which is great for 4x6 prints). I suggest that you output from iView.  It will give you JPEGS to work on and they will be generated MUCH faster.

You may want to investigate http://drycreekphoto.com for profiles of minilabs.

Peter

[danaltick]

Peter,

You know from experience, so I will take your advice and do some experimenting first.  I've belabored this way too much anyway, need to move on and start getting fluent with iView.

Also, feel free to remove this thread from the forum if you feel it might lead others astray....certainly don't won't to do that.

And don't worry, I will definitely be using iView for my proofs, not Bridge.  I can always run an action afterwards if need be.

Thanks for your patience and support,

Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
I'll keep this thread here. It's not an easy thing to understand how all this stuff fits together, and your questions are, I'm sure, shared by many people.
Peter

[danaltick]

Peter,

I went ahead and updated the template per our conversation.  I will go ahead and give it a try starting out to see how it works.  In the meantime, if you can show me a few examples of shoots you've done in the past that would not have a place in this template, please let me know.  Nothing like a few examples to make it clear.  Thanks.

Dan

[peterkrogh]

Dan,
It's not so much that there is NO place for the shoot, as it is that location is being used as too much or an organizing principle.
Peter

[danaltick]

I made some changes to the Image Working Files flow diagram and browser images listed on page one:
   

• Changed the name of folder 2 to 2_RateRpdfxKywrdR&F.  This stands for Rate, RapidFixer, Keyword, and Rank & File in that work order.
• Added Copied2Archive subfolders with explanation
• Added shortcuts to archive (see browser image) with explanation.

Dan