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DAM - the Lightroom way
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Author Topic: DAM - the Lightroom way  (Read 48577 times)
Dierk
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2007, 12:34:02 AM »

Dierk, not sure what you mean by your message but if you can't get into this file, send me an email and I will send it to you.

For one, I meant exactly what I wrote, Apple's iDisk domain does not work with Opera although Opera should have no trouble with the technology used. Unfortunately there are still some cases of idiotic [sorry] Webmasters out there, using bad browser sniffers to prevent those they have not tested their sites with to be used on those sites. Because of this nad some programs expecting IE to be installed, I still have IE 7, which gave me access to the files. Thanks!
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Dierk

IDimager on Windows XP/SP2; 3.2 GHz, 2 GB RAM, loads of storage space.
Other: Nikon D2x, Nikon D200, Capture NX 2, Adobe Creative Suite 3
DannyG
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2007, 08:05:03 AM »

Chris, your making some convincing arguments. So your LR folder structure would be -
MASTERS
   DVD-2007-001
   DVD-2007-002
   DVD-2007-003

DERIVATIVES
   DERIV-2007-001
   DERIV-2007-002

or, would you add shoots as sub-folders....


MASTERS
   DVD-2007-001
      2007-02-18
      2007-02-22a
   DVD-2007-002
      2007-02-22b

Either way, this process requires bringing in the initial shoot into a temporary folder and moving them to the bucket folders.

I guess I'm still not excited about splitting the shoot over multiple bucket folders within LR. If I wanted to start a new collection with all the photos from one shoot, I might have to go to multiple bucket folders to get them all instead of just grabbing them from one folder. But I do like your thoughts on LR matching the backup structure so in the event of needing the backup, you could just bring it back to LR without having to restructure the folders. I guess there is no perfect way to do this, a little give and take either way.

Dan
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Niall Horley
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2007, 08:25:01 AM »

Danny,
How often do you have large shoots that would span 2 buckets? You could always move onto the next bucket if your current shoot will not fit in the current bucket. I know this will not work if you shoot more that 4.5 Gig but how often do you do that?

I also am following Peters naming convention which would be
DVD_001_070101
DVD_002_070202

Where there is sequence number which makes it easy to find the backup. The date Peter suggests the date you close the bucket, I use the date when I created the bucket, but thats because lightroom does not handle changing directory names well, its a manual job to find the folders again.

Under each Bucket I then import the files based on the date they were taken, i.e. 2007-02-18 as you have shown.

Niall

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Niall Horley
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Chris Bishop
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2007, 08:42:53 AM »

Yes I would have folders for shoots, under DVD-001. I don't use the date, as that can be found within the catalogue itself.
Peter suggests, and I find it REALLY USEFUL to ingest the photos into folders that have the photo reference number as the title. ImageIngester (which I have just discovered (after stating no use for it in another thread (SORRY Marc)) will do this in one step.
eg the memory card contains photos numbering *****0221.RAW to ****0371.RAW the folder would be called 221-371. the next folder should begin 372-? if it doesn't look for a missing card. You should see Peter squirm on the training CD when they are not ingested in order!
This folder then stays as one all through the ingestion to archive phase.
PK suggests a workflow file system as follows (from memory)
1-Ingestion
2-awaiting ranking
3-awating initial manipulation
4-awaiting DNG conversion.
These are work in progress folders not arhives.
The files are ingested into 1-Ingestion in a sub folder 221-371
this folder is then moved to 2-awaiting ranking once all the shoot has been ingested (and initially backed up) eg multiple cards
The photos are ranked etc as a shoot, then moved to 3-awating initial manipulation ( I suggest this is basic develop and sync only (see Beardys' thread on this topic)
etc.
These main structured folders (the numbered ones) I believe can be made to auto update as a shoot is added or "moved on" to another folder
Use LR to move the folder, so it can keep track of where the files are.
You would only need to split the shoot over multiple DVD's if it didn't fit on one DVD. I presume this can happen, 10+MPixel cameras then layers etc. (Derivs)
Is this helpful? I'm still very much a digital novice, and a real novice LR user. I cannot decide whether to cut my losses with iVMPro (only had it a month) and buy LR or drop LR.
I'm going to Focus at the weekend (the UK's big photo show) iVMPro is being demoed in a seminar, and LR (and CS3) must be being demoed there as well.
May decide after that.
I'm not a professional photographer (have been), only have one PC, don't need all the functionality of iVMPro nor LR come to that, but I do want to be able to find a photo, quickly in years to come. I hade a great archive system for my negs-still used when couples want reprints-eg original wedding shots, now it's their silver wedding etc.
I'm rambling. must be time to go
Chris Bishop
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Tom
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 01:30:17 PM »

Thanks for all the input. It will be interesting to see how rapidly Adobe works on the LR DAM to improve it so it will be easier and more complete for more photographers. Thanks for the DAM flow chart. I am going to import with IIpro and save a raw and dng copy with my next import and then import the DNG to LR and see how that works. This way I can reference the DNG space for the files and still have my originals renamed in a separate space. I will do all the labels and ratings and keywords in LR and save back to the DNG space and see how that works. I like IIpro for importing and renaming, and hopefully LR over the next year will improve its DAM function enough to be adequate for a person that shoots about 100 photos/wk on average.
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DannyG
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2007, 01:55:42 PM »

Okay, I revised the flow chart. (See Lightroom DAM1_1.pdf) Email me if you want the original Illustrator file)

<removed>

I have made a number of changes based on the ideas from this thread. I am still staying away from DNG for now, even if it is created in another program with full size previews. My understanding is that LR will not modify the DNG preview if any changes are made so until Adobe corrects this I don't want DNG's in the system.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Adobe come out with version 1.1 in the very near future. In fact, I would guess that there will be many revisons in a short period of time as they come up to speed.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 01:05:24 PM by DannyG » Logged
Chris Bishop
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2007, 02:17:27 PM »

Peter can't give anything away, but he keeps mentioning updates before to long-as if they are nearly ready-my guess no insider knowledge.
DNGs in LR are OK LR works differently to iVMPro so it doesn't need the previews. Only needed if leaving LR, even going to CS2/3 is OK.
DNGs are good. Look at a CS2 conversion to DNG and how that can be re-opened in LR / CS3 and improved, still lossless.
Chris Bishop
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seanmccormack
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2007, 01:58:06 AM »

As the team took time off after skipping 2 Christmas' holidays, I think v1.1 is probably not 'in the bag' just yet!
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Chris Bishop
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2007, 04:42:43 AM »

The improved .pdf is great. three nit-picking suggestions, really minor.
The backup of the import you question as a temporary back up. I'd say was a serious permanent keep.
I'd still rank before editing- means you only concetrate on 3 stars and above (for example)
The Derivs path-do you mean catalogue name or shoot name? how many catalogues do you expect to have?
I like the different options shown under the derivs BW CMYK etc, you may get BW and CMYK for the same file number, and 8-10.jpg and 5-4.jpg etc. The "select final processing or send to photoshop" could be placed before the derivs path. the derivs are the names given to files after this work has been carried out.
You have put a lot of work into this, I'm not knocking it.
Chris Bishop
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Niall Horley
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2007, 05:01:56 AM »

I agree with chris I would rank the files while they are in a temporary folder. Have you tried moving these files in lightroom? does it handle it easily.

I have a couple of other questions, they are issues in the way I am trying to work which is similar to your flow and I need them answered.
1) In the Master files the xmp side cars are going to get updated when you edit photos once they are in the lightroom collections, how are these files going to be backed up? I ask this because once a bucket is full it will be burnt to a dvd, but we now have data changing in that bucket after the initial burn to DVD. Also when backing up to another hard drive should I be using mirroring software?

2) Where are the physical lightroom catalogues being kept, as these need to be backed up as they contain data which is not in the xmp files.

3) Are you adding all of the derivatives back into the main lightroom library, I ask this because I see two different scenarios here.
a) A collection is to be printed out, no external editing has been performed to the files.
b) A file has been edited in photoshop ( or another editor).

I think the workflow you are developing is looking good.

Niall
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Niall Horley
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Chris Bishop
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2007, 07:28:19 AM »

XMP files have "lost me"-I don't know?
Backing up to DVD>Until the DVD is at about 4GB I use RW discs. Once full I use once only R discs. Ther XMP files are backed up as well. I use Roxio s/ware.
Once a file is in my archive DVD folder it doesn't get changed. EVER. it might get accessed to create a derivative, but then the derivative files are dynamic. in the work flow being followed here "temporary" When a project is complete the Derivative files are burnt to a DVD RW until full, then an R disc. IF a "client" wants work later then either the Deriv is accessed (no work carried out on it) another five 10*8's from an already prepared file, OR another deriv is created and archived to the next free DVD. If it's the same DVD, I put it in the "clients" folder and the back up program finds it and absorbs it. If it is another DVD then it is just put into a client folder on that DVD.The catalogue will find all the files as neccessary. yes I back up the LR catalogue, but it doesn't contain my photos. (At work I also can't remember where LR puts it)
Not all Masters have a Derivative. Some Masters have multiple Derivatives. The catalogue should sort it.
I believe mirroring software only comes into it's own to re-create a crashed (also when enlarging) operating system drive-the one with all the programs, passwords etc.the pain to restore. For files: Word, Excel, Accounts, the catalogue and the photos a normal back up system to an external HDD should be adequate Two separate HDD is better. I use a HDD and A DVD.
Chris Bishop
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DannyG
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2007, 07:42:48 AM »

Chris, I agree with you on the first backup. I added the "Temporary?" because this is the way Peter has it in his book, but I'm more inclined to keep it - memory is cheap enough to do this.

Catalogs - I have no idea how many catalogs will be made but I assume a lot. I may even put a sub-catalog named Derivs within it's parent and keep a reference there. If I do that I may skip the Derivative "Catalog Name" folder and just use the bucket folders. The Catalog section of LR really becomes the most powerful part of the program. I'm just now trying to think of the most logical way to use this.

The Derivs file structure, BW, CMYK, etc. was taken out of Peter's book. It really makes sense since it keeps the original file name, making it easy to backtrack if necessary.

Niall - your number 1 is a great question. I really don't know the answer and hadn't thought about this. I think it comes down to - if you make changes to an image that you want to keep, you better save it as derivative. I think this is what Chris is saying.

2- I believe that the LR catalogues will be backed up when you use the LR backup (which does not backup the actual photo files) Does anyone know if when using the LR backup it backs up the xmp files as well?

3 - The question of what makes up a real derivative gets a little more complicated with LR because of virtual copies. Certainly, anything that goes out to something like photoshop becomes a derivative. Also if you make a copy of an image and work on it within LR. That copy becomes a derivative. But if changes are only to the original file and If it stays in LR you will have to decide how important it is to keep the changes. If you don't save it as a derivative then you may end up modifying it in LR at a later date, loosing your original changes. I'm not clear on how LR keeps the information on virtual copies.

It looks like we need more information on the actual backup process. What exactly is in the LR backup, etc.

Dan
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Chris Bishop
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2007, 08:06:13 AM »

I believe a search can only be done on one catalogue at a time, unless I've missed something. I don't think you can search accross multple catalogues. Hence my question of catalogue names in the Derivs pathway.
I would ensure any change to a Master (original) file is saved in as a derivative. It may be a virtual copy nad hence it appears as if it has been moved to the deriv pathway, but LR will find it in either place, unless again I've missed something. I've only had the program 5 days and still learning.
I don't use LR's back up as I like mine. It backs up all my daily changed files in one go, (accounts, word docs, spreadsheets, catalogue, photos etc.)
Chris Bishop
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Chris Bishop
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2007, 08:22:38 AM »

I'm spending so much time in this forum, it may be telling me I prefer it to iVMPro?
Chris Bishop
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Niall Horley
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2007, 08:36:42 AM »

@Chris, the xmp files are sidecar files which lightroom can generate it does not by default, they contains all the metadata about that file, i.e. ratings, key words and how you have developed the file.

So if I come back to my first question, I select a file which I had previously developed and wanted to rework it, the xmp file would now get updated. ideally this data should be saved.
I suppose I could generate a new derivative and import that back into lightroom, or create a virtual image, thus having the 2 versions of the master file. This seams to be the more natural way to use lightroom, but it does not follow your NEVER change a master after its archived which is a very good stand point.

@Dan, Are you intending to have a lot of catalogs? hence why the catalog name is in the derivative path.


For backups at the moment I use 2 hard drives and alternate them obnce a week, one is at work and the other is at home. I use mirroring software to update the disc as it only copies what has changed or been added. I am aware that the problem with this is that if a file gets corrupted on my computer this will propagate to the backup drives. Not good.

@Dan, I beleive the LR Catalog Backup will not backup the xmp files but I beleive all the data to regenerate them and more is contained in them. I will have a look at the backup process and tonight and see what it does.

Niall
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Niall Horley
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