Boot disk failure

[Mike777]

Eventually traced to a persihed wire from the power supply.

Of course I didn't panic at all because my c: drive is always backed up on a regular basis. Starting from tonight it is 

Mike

[peterkrogh]

Yes, people, take Mike as an example of the position you don't want to be in.

Make sure to backup your boot drives...
Peter

[wombat2010]

I currently use Retrospect (by EMC/Dantz) to back up my boot drive to the same external drive on which I back up images and other data.  I set up a backup action using the built-in "System backup" option in Retrospect.  Has anyone ever used Retrospect to restore a system drive using this (or any other) method?  I ask because I don't know that Retrospect does the same sort of mirroring Norton Ghost does, so I wonder how easy/hard it is to restore a system drive from a Retrospect backup.  I am reluctant to try it because it will require wiping out my system drive or getting a guineau pig drive and disconnecting my system drive--given that my machine is not system critical, I could live with having to do a fresh install, but it would be nice to know it works.  Thanks.

Stephen

[peterkrogh]

Stephen,
Can't comment on that, but I did a migration to 10.4 on my main business computer today and it went off without a hitch.

Before I migrated, I cloned to a separate drive, booted off that drive, ran disk Warrior on the PB drive.  The booted off the install DVD and ran the update.

It looks like it went problem free, but I'd be ready even in the evnt of a problem.
Peter

[wombat2010]

Peter,

Thank you for sharing your experience.  Of course, you are using a Mac--the fact that your restore went smoothly on a Mac does not necessarily give me confidence in how easily a WinXP restore would go for me. 

I should probably try it sometime, just to see.  I was considering buying a smaller drive just to keep a boot disk clone on anyway.

Stephen

[peterkrogh]

Stephen,
I had to do this to my only PC when the drive failed.  It went very smoothly.   I used Norton Ghost.
Peter

[wombat2010]

Thank you, Peter.  I have thought about getting Ghost for just that purpose.  For now I think I'll stick with Retrospect and test it when I have time.  Like I said, if I lost a day having to reinstall apps and my OS, the empire would still stand.

Stephen

[David Anderson]

I currently use Retrospect (by EMC/Dantz) to back up my boot drive to the same external drive on which I back up images and other data.  I set up a backup action using the built-in "System backup" option in Retrospect.  Has anyone ever used Retrospect to restore a system drive using this (or any other) method?  I ask because I don't know that Retrospect does the same sort of mirroring Norton Ghost does, so I wonder how easy/hard it is to restore a system drive from a Retrospect backup.  I am reluctant to try it because it will require wiping out my system drive or getting a guineau pig drive and disconnecting my system drive--given that my machine is not system critical, I could live with having to do a fresh install, but it would be nice to know it works.  

Stephen,
I'm in the same situation as you are (depending on Retrospect backups, but never having done a full system restore on a blank disk) and share your unease. One day I may regret not having taken the time to do a dry run of the restore process. There's always something else more important to do, like stroking the cat or deciding how to implement world peace. In the meantime, read the 'Restoring the backup computer' section of the Retrospect User's Guide (Page 193 onwards in my printed version). If you haven't already done so, create a Disaster Recovery CD as this makes recovery easier. It may also be advisable to create new DR CDs on a regular basis, though I'm slightly unsure about that. I also recommend checking out EMC's Retrospect forum for issues that have been raised about this topic.

David

[wombat2010]

David,

Thank you for the reply.  I will re-read that section of the manual (I think I skimmed through the part when I first got Retrospect)--we're supposed to get a lot of rain dumped on us in Maryland this weekend anyway, so it's a good time for dense computer manual reading. Thank you, also, for the reminder about the boot disk.  I forgot about doing that.

If I do a trial run on a blank disc, I will report back here.  I doubt it will be anytime soon.  After all, as you pointed out, I may have more compelling things to do like sharpening some drill bits or arranging my CD collection autobiographically.

Stephen

[floordog]

I also have Dantz/EMC Retrospect as a back up using a Maxtor external USB hard drive.  I have had a crash on my boot drive and learned lots of lessons that were not in any instruction manual.  Please pass on this information.  Never make assumptions about what you think "might" happen. Be prepared for the worst, thats why you have a back up system.

I Installed the HDD backup system and hardware following mfg instructions.  Here is the first problem.  I am using WINXP home, and I bought my USB back up hardware/software a year ago.  This is important to know.  I always make sure there is a WINXP logo approval on all hardware and softwa4re, but some times you will still have problems.  Here what happened to me.  My auto updating WINXP downloaded a .NET 2.0 update. this caused a failure in the DANTZ/Retrospect software.  It corrupted my catalog on the boot drive and my system failed to boot.  I contacted Datz and learned that their software would not support  .Net 2.0.  So I had to uninstall .Net 2.0 and uninstall all programs requiring it.  This isn't obvious until a program crashes.  You see when you update application (or OS) and the update doesn't explicitly state what it is doing, you might download an update that will require Net 2. and this also has to be uninstalled.  Its a mess, and will take you a week to unravel.  Next, I had to repartition my USB back up drive and reformat it and set it all up again.  That took another week.  I had a bigger problem.  I found that the consumer version of the Dantz/EMC software is not a good back up solution for many reasons. I would not trust it for a real emergency.  I was told to upgrade to the professional version which was more robust.  Only $49 . Its worth the money!!!   But there is as huge problem looming ahead I'll tell you about.

The reason you want a back up, is to protect you applications and data , correct?  Most vendors, and  Microsoft and others always warn you to back up system.   But they don't tell you the details.  here goes.  In order for EMC/Dantz Retrospect to work it must have the following:
1) A boot hard drive.

2) The boot drive must have the same OS, version and updates on it as the back up.

3) In the case of WINXP that means it MUST BE THE SAME level of WINXP- that is WINXP SP2 plus 57 crititical updates--if that was on your boot and back up drives.

4) You must have all original  EMC/RETROSPECT catalogue files which encoded the original data on the back up (or you can't read it - mine is encrypted -it is in the boot drive software application.

Now all this looks simple enough, but what happens to cause MOST data losses on the boot drive?  YES, a failure of the operating system (boot failure or worse) AND/OR  hard drive malfunction.  It is imperative that the OS remain intact so the Boot HDD Master Boot Record can be read, and files located.

No where does the instruction manual tell you this, yet it is so painfully obvious.  Now, that actual time for data recovery is much longer than you can imagine.  Its not a quick "click", "click" but a long toturous process taking from days to weeks.  The reason is the 4 statements above.

So here is a quick and dirty solution that works and is quick (less than an hour, but it causes bigger problems over time).  Take a suitable hard drive, partition it, and format it to your requirements.   Install WINXP on it PLUS ALL 56 updates.  This will take a few hours.  Copy the entire hard drive that you have as boot including the most recent DANTZ retrospect application and catalogue.  Of course check for viruses etc.  Now take this Boot hard drive and remove it from your computer, and place it in an electrostatic bag  and treat like it is your only back up!  Replace your REAL boot drive and check for system instabilities etc.  I like to completely shut down a WINXP for a few minutes before rebooting each time, and do this at least twice with NO changes between reboots for each change.  The reason is the way Windows loads its Registry.  Just take your time, and don't take shortcuts.

Okay, here comes the big day of the CRASH !  Boom, no boot sequence (this happened), No safe mode, no terminal, no anything just a BLACK screen.  All hardware (HDD RAM etc) was 100% just before crash.

If you didn't have a back up of your Boot hard drive as outlined, you have NO ACCESS to your back up drive until you can "fix" the hard drive or repair the WINXP.  This will take time if it is a possibility.  But IT MIGHT BE IMPOSSIBLE to recover your system, OS and EMC application/catalogues.  You now have an expensive mess, with NO ability to recover anyhting unless you hire a data recovery firm costing at least $2,000 - $4,000 PLUS two weeks - there is still NO absolute guarantee you will succeed.

Now, if you have a complete back up (even if its a few months old) on an "emergency boot hard drive" with all EMC files including catalogue.  You can be back in business and have minimal data loss.  You will lose what wasn't properly backed up +/- a week or so.   SUPER- BUT WAIT!

BUT THIS CREATES A WHOLE NEW PROBLEM WITH WINXP.  It happened to me.  WINXP ius set up to "phone home" to Microsoft whenever it is on a Network.  You also MUST have the latest drivers and updates to mimic the Boot drive and system you had in place when you backed up your hard drive (including browser).  That requires the updates which also TATTLES on you that you have "illegally" copied WINXP onto a different computer - NOT TRUE.  What happens is that you will get a 72 hour countdown before WINDOWS XP freezes for good. Yes this happend a on  3 day weekend.  All I could "talk" to were polite Indians - Microsoft wiil cheerfully "reactivate" you for an additional $200, even if you never intended to steal anyhting. Every failure is YOUR FAULT, NEVER Microsoft. You just want the damn thing to work.  

We all know that WINXP is the most stable of the Windows OS's but what does that mean?  It only means that it crashes less than previous versions.  The New VISTA runs on the same Kernel so it might be more stable but it is really a new "paint job" on an old car.  It still must be updated to thwart hacker tools, and its the same old same old.

So, if you research the old WIN NT software on the Microsoft website, you will find that they already know of the problems in recovering data from a remote back up, without a catalogue file and without  a working boot drive!  So they knew this all along, but won't let these facts get ijhn the way of the "Genuine WINDOWS Validation" spyware that they use to legitimately protect their ip rights, but which gloss over the fact that you only want the WINXP to work without trashiung all your data.  I am not blaming this solely on WINXP, but it is also true if you have a boot hard drive failure for ANY reason.

It is possible to get around this by using two other techniques.  Back up all your data on a network (costly - and less secure), or buy numerous hard drives, and make bootable ISO images of your boot drive as frequently as you can.  For example, I could buy 10 300 GB Maxtor drives and label them with a day date and time.  At the end of each day, I could instruct my backup application - Ypui don't need anything fancy for this ie Retrospect is not required - nothing is encrypted or compressed.  My costs would be about $100/drive on sale and discount = $1,000.  On the day of the BIG crash, you only have to remove the offending hard drive, isolate it in a separate electrostatic bag, and install the last known good drive.  The only downside is that Microsoft will want their $200 within 4 days after you "recover" your system.  Now, if you can troubleshoot and "fix" or restore your system -on the original failed Boot- you must within 4 days remove the "old" hard drive and get the original boot going again.  Its best not to go online for asny reason after the crash, or Windows will "phone home" and will make you a "counterfeiter" no matter how fast you do the recovery.

This would work, but you have to fix your original Boot drive quickly without ever going on a network during the interim time!!!

No one tells you this stuff, until it happens to YOU.   It happened to me.  When you call Microsoft you will get NO SYMPATHY, untl you pay you $200 for each crash.  You will get an endless Merry-Go Round of transfers to India and the most you will get is very polite "YES SIRS", and information how to pay your $200, or download a Microsoft program that will always tell you you are a counterfeiter and this will be the "FACTS" that justify another $200.    I also learned that Microsoft employees are told to NEVER reveal their true names including last names when talking with "home use" cusomers, and will NEVER give out their real telephone extensions.  Even with caller ID, you will ONLY get the "corporate" main number.  The problem is aggravated by the fact they have NO departmental listings, and NO first name directory, so you have to rely on their good will to call you back (if you get this far).  The operators know every reason to NOT know anyones name.  They want correspondence via email wihout commitment or REAL NAMES (Microsft employees).  Remmeber that Microsft is paying out millions EACH DAY for legal penalties for mischief making.  They don't want to be resposible for any more- even if they are at fault.  Their operating systems HAVE NEVER FAILED- didn't you know that?

ALSO they are very paranoid about saying anything that can get them in legal problems, so they don't say anything of significance that you can use to solve your computer problem.  Unless you pay more money - which may not fix your OS problem anyway.  They want to give you the "apperance of caring" but their products are proof that they don't care.  It might be the time to go through the hassles of learning LINUX or switching to a MAC or MAC OSX clone?

[David Anderson]

Floordog,
So far, I've only skimmed your lengthy and heartfelt post. I can sympathise with the frustration felt by anyone who has to endure the so-called help offered by call centres, wherever they may be situated. "Your call is important to us. Please hold on until one of our operatives is free to take your call..........."

However, one thought occurred to me fairly rapidly. What matters to me is my data. No else can ever recreate that for me and it is the core of my backup scenario. Backing up the operating system is far less important to me. As I said, I've not yet really absorbed all the details in your post, but surely wiping your hard disk clean, reinstalling Windows and then restoring your data is less hassle than what you have described?

David

[ClickCardo]

Just Norton Ghost the boot drive periodically, I do complete each week and incremental each day, to another physical drive.  When boot HDD fails, get a new physical boot drive, then boot from Ghost CD and point it at the Ghost image on the other physical drive.  That's all and 30 minutes later you right back where you left off.