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Print Page - DAM - the Lightroom way

The DAM Forum

Software Discussions => Lightroom => Topic started by: DannyG on February 20, 2007, 12:05:33 PM



Title: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 20, 2007, 12:05:33 PM
I have taken a stab at creating a flow chart for a Lightroom based DAM system. I'm not sure if I can add files to posts on this forum so I uploaded the diagrams to:
<removed>

I included both a PDF version and the original Illustrator version in case someone wanted to modify it.

I consider this a preliminary rough draft as I didn't want to go too far down the road without getting some feedback. Also, I am just starting a digital library so my needs are relatively simple and this probably won't work for more extensive libraries.

Notes:
1. You will see that I have stayed away from DNG's - at least until LR includes 100% previews.
2. I'm keeping the "Folders" section of LR as pure as possible as this is were the file backups will come from.
3. The LR database would also have to be backed up. I understand that when using the LR Backup, it only backs up the database and not the image files.
4. All the cataloging happens in the Collections section - I'm not sure if this is the best way but I'm putting it out there as a start.

I look forward to your feedback. Hopefully we call all put our heads together and come up with a workable Lightroom only solution.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Butch_M on February 20, 2007, 01:57:47 PM
Hi Danny G

This is very similar to what has been going on in my head as to using LR for the Lion's share of the bulk processing tasks and iVew for the master catalog. Once an order has been delivered, create DNG with the DNG converter move to JBOD archive, catalog in iView, add private metadata, then delete the job (for organizational purposes) from LR until it grows into a better DAM workhorse. I like iView and the team that created it .... I, however, am not optimistic to it's future at MS. I wish them the best, but I have a feeling if push comes to shove, Mac users like myself may get left behind by licensing issues if nothing else. I'm not tryimg to cause a great debate ... just looking to the future and expolring as many options as I can. I can even envision having a catalog on both systems at some point in the future if possible.

Butch


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 21, 2007, 03:55:31 AM
Hi,

I am i the same position as you, trying to adapt Peters work flow to use Lightroom. If I understand your directory I am starting to follow a similar process.
I am assuming in your diagram that the lightroom folders and collections are built over your Derivatives and Master files on the hard drive. So are  these in effect what Peter would term his working directories? I thought the Master files were just another flavour of derivative files.

I am also assuming that you are not archiving photos, apart from with the initial import. I have a similar situation, for my personnel work I want to have access to it all the time, the children often look through the photos when they feel like it which is nice. Also when people come round and want to look at my holiday photos they are there. I also have studio work which I can archive once the clients have the photos. So over time my working directories will get quite large, this may become a problem, but I am not sure how to get round this.

Niall


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Dierk on February 21, 2007, 04:47:42 AM
Dang Apple!

Their iDisk domain does not work with Opera ...


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 21, 2007, 05:03:21 AM
Dang Apple!

Their iDisk domain does not work with Opera ...

Works in IE there is a surprise, I suppose even m$ could not get away with that.

BTW what is the ai file?

Niall


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 21, 2007, 07:01:49 AM
The .ai file is an Adobe Illustrator file of the same diagram. I posted it so if someone wanted to take it and modify it they could.

This still has a long way  to go. Niall, my thought was that once the raw files were edited with basic adjustments and basic metadata added, they become the master files. All other changes are handled in LR via the collections, except for those that are permanent derivatives.

I have not considered archiving at this point and not sure how to go about it.

I also don't know the best way to backup the LR library of photos except by manually moving them into buckets folders and keeping track of what has been backed up and what has not. It would nice to find a more automated system.

Dierk, not sure what you mean by your message but if you can't get into this file, send me an email and I will send it to you.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 21, 2007, 07:20:37 AM
The .ai file is an Adobe Illustrator file of the same diagram. I posted it so if someone wanted to take it and modify it they could.

This still has a long way  to go. Niall, my thought was that once the raw files were edited with basic adjustments and basic metadata added, they become the master files. All other changes are handled in LR via the collections, except for those that are permanent derivatives.

I have not considered archiving at this point and not sure how to go about it.

I also don't know the best way to backup the LR library of photos except by manually moving them into buckets folders and keeping track of what has been backed up and what has not. It would nice to find a more automated system.


When you have done your basic adjustments do you move the files into a new directory or are they imported directly into the masters directory structure.

If they are imported directly into the masters directory structure, why do you not just create a bucket below the year directory, once it fills up to 4GB (I assume you are using DVD's) Create a new bucket. This is what I am planning on doing. The only issue I have is that if I go back & visit files in these directories the xmp will be updated and will need to be backed up, but I am not sure how to know what needs to be backed up.

You could also do the same under the derivatives directory.

I would also move the lightroom library into the LR Folders area. As this needs to be backed up as some of the data is not in the xmp files, I think version and stack data is missing.

One think lightroom is rubbish at is if you move a directory it looses where all the images are, yes I know its only a v1 product but still.

Niall


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 21, 2007, 07:23:03 AM
If you keep the photos in a file structure that suits your work-flow and import the photos into LR-backing becomes the catalogue only and not all the photos.
Keep Masters and all sub-folders in a bucket size structure that makes back ups easier. Instead of "Year" (in grey) DVD-2007-001, DVD-2007-002, DVD-2007-100 etc, or month and year if needed. I am using just the "shoot" details in DVD-001 etc. I hope to find which bucket via the catalogue.
Any work being done on the Masters makes them a derivative SO SAVE WITH A DIFFERENT NAME, then the Masters can be archived. Any derivative being worked on (work in progress) is backed up as you would any document you produce, be it a Word document, spreadsheet or accounts data. Once the job is finished the photos are moved to the derivatives archive bucket. Again I use Derivs-DVD-001 then shoot. inside shoot would be the .psd files (or lightzone or photomatix or Ptassembler etc) any jpgs for printing flattened tiffs etc-keeping the psd as the "unflattened version"
If I re-access the masters to create futher derivs for a different person (my clients are famliy and friends) then they go in another shoot folder (Skiing Jan 07B) if the original DVD bucket is full, if not just add to the original shoot folder-the backup routine will pick them up. Once the DVD is full and archived it is read only-access a file to create a NEW deriv, but not alter an existing deriv.
Is this clear? (as mud!)
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 21, 2007, 08:05:30 AM
Looking at your suggested workflow again, i would rank and select earlier. This means the higher the rating, the more attention paid to the image, even before Edit metadata and basic adjust-saves time.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: David Arnold on February 21, 2007, 10:29:03 AM
Couldn't open it in Firefox, saw Niall's posting, tried IE (ver. 6), opened fine.

Who would'a thunk?!j

David


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Terence Dodge on February 21, 2007, 12:53:19 PM
Greetings

Firefox ( ver 1.5.0.9 ) opened iDisk reference, and download file which opened with Acrobat.

Terence


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: David Arnold on February 21, 2007, 02:00:15 PM
I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.1. Maybe they went backwards. But I keep IE on my computer just for occasions like this...which don't happen once or twice a year. At any rate, I got the flowchart. Now need to put some time in studying and thinking about it, and then rereading the thread.

David


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 21, 2007, 03:21:46 PM
Chris, I understand what you are saying about making the LR folders bucket size but here are my thoughts for keeping the bucket system outside LR.
1. I'd rather keep the imported shoot together in one folder. I'm thinking it would be easier to go back to one folder rather than search over a number of folders to find all the photos for one shoot. (I don't know why I would ever have to do this, but it would be nice to know it's all there in one folder.)
2. One way or the other, you still have to manually copy the files into buckets. I'd rather do it outside of LR as part of the backing up process and leave LR clean.
3. As Peter mentioned in his book, storage capacity will likely change, and continue to change. Over time you will end up with different size folders in LR, solely based on the current bucket size. Again, I think this would be easier to deal with outside of LR.
4. If LR adds a really nice backup system as part of the program in the future, the whole bucket system might go away with something better. If that happens your stuck with a LR folder system that is no longer necessary. Of course you could always go in and rearrange you LR folders, but I'd rather not have to deal with that.

I hoping Peter will jump in here at some point with his thoughts.

Dan

Ps: I didn't realize that accessing iDisk would be such a problem. If anyone can't get the file, just email me and I will send it.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 21, 2007, 05:54:20 PM
Importing the photos into LR means backing up both the photos and the catalogue. (large) Keeping the photos in bucket sized folders and just getting LR to "find them" keeps the two operations separate. Photo back up and catalogue backup. This is easier and controlable. The imported shoot can be in one folder (It could span 4 DVD's) But the shoot would have to span several buckets. the catalogue would direct you to which DVD bucket you needed.
2 Yes follow Peters CD training and he does just this. Why outside LR? Inside LR at least LR knows where everything has been moved to.
Move a photo outside LR and it no longer knows where it is and can't link to it.
3 Yes my 4.?Gb buckets could be merged to blue ray, but it would be Blue Ray-001 (containing as many current buckets as fills a Blue Ray) The bucket policy didn't change. Just get LR to move the folders to the new system.
4 I've lost too much costly data over my computing years to trust backing up to anything other than a proven back-up program. I would never trust LR to back up my photos. If it improves (and Peter is suggesting so-without admitting what he knows) the current bucket system would be accepted until that date. Then the new "bucket system" would start, historically stored data would be incorporated within the program (or Peter would have a lot to say about it) (being on the "inside")
Thanks for starting this important thread.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Jake on February 21, 2007, 06:17:52 PM
Danny,
Thanks for the chart and starting this thread, it's what I needed for a kick start. A little off topic, but after reading through this again, I'm wondering if maybe Virtual Copies could play a role as derivitives. They would be auto backed up by LR.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Dierk on February 22, 2007, 12:34:02 AM
Dierk, not sure what you mean by your message but if you can't get into this file, send me an email and I will send it to you.

For one, I meant exactly what I wrote, Apple's iDisk domain does not work with Opera although Opera should have no trouble with the technology used. Unfortunately there are still some cases of idiotic [sorry] Webmasters out there, using bad browser sniffers to prevent those they have not tested their sites with to be used on those sites. Because of this nad some programs expecting IE to be installed, I still have IE 7, which gave me access to the files. Thanks!


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 22, 2007, 08:05:03 AM
Chris, your making some convincing arguments. So your LR folder structure would be -
MASTERS
   DVD-2007-001
   DVD-2007-002
   DVD-2007-003

DERIVATIVES
   DERIV-2007-001
   DERIV-2007-002

or, would you add shoots as sub-folders....


MASTERS
   DVD-2007-001
      2007-02-18
      2007-02-22a
   DVD-2007-002
      2007-02-22b

Either way, this process requires bringing in the initial shoot into a temporary folder and moving them to the bucket folders.

I guess I'm still not excited about splitting the shoot over multiple bucket folders within LR. If I wanted to start a new collection with all the photos from one shoot, I might have to go to multiple bucket folders to get them all instead of just grabbing them from one folder. But I do like your thoughts on LR matching the backup structure so in the event of needing the backup, you could just bring it back to LR without having to restructure the folders. I guess there is no perfect way to do this, a little give and take either way.

Dan


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 22, 2007, 08:25:01 AM
Danny,
How often do you have large shoots that would span 2 buckets? You could always move onto the next bucket if your current shoot will not fit in the current bucket. I know this will not work if you shoot more that 4.5 Gig but how often do you do that?

I also am following Peters naming convention which would be
DVD_001_070101
DVD_002_070202

Where there is sequence number which makes it easy to find the backup. The date Peter suggests the date you close the bucket, I use the date when I created the bucket, but thats because lightroom does not handle changing directory names well, its a manual job to find the folders again.

Under each Bucket I then import the files based on the date they were taken, i.e. 2007-02-18 as you have shown.

Niall



Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 22, 2007, 08:42:53 AM
Yes I would have folders for shoots, under DVD-001. I don't use the date, as that can be found within the catalogue itself.
Peter suggests, and I find it REALLY USEFUL to ingest the photos into folders that have the photo reference number as the title. ImageIngester (which I have just discovered (after stating no use for it in another thread (SORRY Marc)) will do this in one step.
eg the memory card contains photos numbering *****0221.RAW to ****0371.RAW the folder would be called 221-371. the next folder should begin 372-? if it doesn't look for a missing card. You should see Peter squirm on the training CD when they are not ingested in order!
This folder then stays as one all through the ingestion to archive phase.
PK suggests a workflow file system as follows (from memory)
1-Ingestion
2-awaiting ranking
3-awating initial manipulation
4-awaiting DNG conversion.
These are work in progress folders not arhives.
The files are ingested into 1-Ingestion in a sub folder 221-371
this folder is then moved to 2-awaiting ranking once all the shoot has been ingested (and initially backed up) eg multiple cards
The photos are ranked etc as a shoot, then moved to 3-awating initial manipulation ( I suggest this is basic develop and sync only (see Beardys' thread on this topic)
etc.
These main structured folders (the numbered ones) I believe can be made to auto update as a shoot is added or "moved on" to another folder
Use LR to move the folder, so it can keep track of where the files are.
You would only need to split the shoot over multiple DVD's if it didn't fit on one DVD. I presume this can happen, 10+MPixel cameras then layers etc. (Derivs)
Is this helpful? I'm still very much a digital novice, and a real novice LR user. I cannot decide whether to cut my losses with iVMPro (only had it a month) and buy LR or drop LR.
I'm going to Focus at the weekend (the UK's big photo show) iVMPro is being demoed in a seminar, and LR (and CS3) must be being demoed there as well.
May decide after that.
I'm not a professional photographer (have been), only have one PC, don't need all the functionality of iVMPro nor LR come to that, but I do want to be able to find a photo, quickly in years to come. I hade a great archive system for my negs-still used when couples want reprints-eg original wedding shots, now it's their silver wedding etc.
I'm rambling. must be time to go
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Tom on February 22, 2007, 01:30:17 PM
Thanks for all the input. It will be interesting to see how rapidly Adobe works on the LR DAM to improve it so it will be easier and more complete for more photographers. Thanks for the DAM flow chart. I am going to import with IIpro and save a raw and dng copy with my next import and then import the DNG to LR and see how that works. This way I can reference the DNG space for the files and still have my originals renamed in a separate space. I will do all the labels and ratings and keywords in LR and save back to the DNG space and see how that works. I like IIpro for importing and renaming, and hopefully LR over the next year will improve its DAM function enough to be adequate for a person that shoots about 100 photos/wk on average.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 22, 2007, 01:55:42 PM
Okay, I revised the flow chart. (See Lightroom DAM1_1.pdf) Email me if you want the original Illustrator file)

<removed>

I have made a number of changes based on the ideas from this thread. I am still staying away from DNG for now, even if it is created in another program with full size previews. My understanding is that LR will not modify the DNG preview if any changes are made so until Adobe corrects this I don't want DNG's in the system.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Adobe come out with version 1.1 in the very near future. In fact, I would guess that there will be many revisons in a short period of time as they come up to speed.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 22, 2007, 02:17:27 PM
Peter can't give anything away, but he keeps mentioning updates before to long-as if they are nearly ready-my guess no insider knowledge.
DNGs in LR are OK LR works differently to iVMPro so it doesn't need the previews. Only needed if leaving LR, even going to CS2/3 is OK.
DNGs are good. Look at a CS2 conversion to DNG and how that can be re-opened in LR / CS3 and improved, still lossless.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: seanmccormack on February 23, 2007, 01:58:06 AM
As the team took time off after skipping 2 Christmas' holidays, I think v1.1 is probably not 'in the bag' just yet!


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 23, 2007, 04:42:43 AM
The improved .pdf is great. three nit-picking suggestions, really minor.
The backup of the import you question as a temporary back up. I'd say was a serious permanent keep.
I'd still rank before editing- means you only concetrate on 3 stars and above (for example)
The Derivs path-do you mean catalogue name or shoot name? how many catalogues do you expect to have?
I like the different options shown under the derivs BW CMYK etc, you may get BW and CMYK for the same file number, and 8-10.jpg and 5-4.jpg etc. The "select final processing or send to photoshop" could be placed before the derivs path. the derivs are the names given to files after this work has been carried out.
You have put a lot of work into this, I'm not knocking it.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 23, 2007, 05:01:56 AM
I agree with chris I would rank the files while they are in a temporary folder. Have you tried moving these files in lightroom? does it handle it easily.

I have a couple of other questions, they are issues in the way I am trying to work which is similar to your flow and I need them answered.
1) In the Master files the xmp side cars are going to get updated when you edit photos once they are in the lightroom collections, how are these files going to be backed up? I ask this because once a bucket is full it will be burnt to a dvd, but we now have data changing in that bucket after the initial burn to DVD. Also when backing up to another hard drive should I be using mirroring software?

2) Where are the physical lightroom catalogues being kept, as these need to be backed up as they contain data which is not in the xmp files.

3) Are you adding all of the derivatives back into the main lightroom library, I ask this because I see two different scenarios here.
a) A collection is to be printed out, no external editing has been performed to the files.
b) A file has been edited in photoshop ( or another editor).

I think the workflow you are developing is looking good.

Niall


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 23, 2007, 07:28:19 AM
XMP files have "lost me"-I don't know?
Backing up to DVD>Until the DVD is at about 4GB I use RW discs. Once full I use once only R discs. Ther XMP files are backed up as well. I use Roxio s/ware.
Once a file is in my archive DVD folder it doesn't get changed. EVER. it might get accessed to create a derivative, but then the derivative files are dynamic. in the work flow being followed here "temporary" When a project is complete the Derivative files are burnt to a DVD RW until full, then an R disc. IF a "client" wants work later then either the Deriv is accessed (no work carried out on it) another five 10*8's from an already prepared file, OR another deriv is created and archived to the next free DVD. If it's the same DVD, I put it in the "clients" folder and the back up program finds it and absorbs it. If it is another DVD then it is just put into a client folder on that DVD.The catalogue will find all the files as neccessary. yes I back up the LR catalogue, but it doesn't contain my photos. (At work I also can't remember where LR puts it)
Not all Masters have a Derivative. Some Masters have multiple Derivatives. The catalogue should sort it.
I believe mirroring software only comes into it's own to re-create a crashed (also when enlarging) operating system drive-the one with all the programs, passwords etc.the pain to restore. For files: Word, Excel, Accounts, the catalogue and the photos a normal back up system to an external HDD should be adequate Two separate HDD is better. I use a HDD and A DVD.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 23, 2007, 07:42:48 AM
Chris, I agree with you on the first backup. I added the "Temporary?" because this is the way Peter has it in his book, but I'm more inclined to keep it - memory is cheap enough to do this.

Catalogs - I have no idea how many catalogs will be made but I assume a lot. I may even put a sub-catalog named Derivs within it's parent and keep a reference there. If I do that I may skip the Derivative "Catalog Name" folder and just use the bucket folders. The Catalog section of LR really becomes the most powerful part of the program. I'm just now trying to think of the most logical way to use this.

The Derivs file structure, BW, CMYK, etc. was taken out of Peter's book. It really makes sense since it keeps the original file name, making it easy to backtrack if necessary.

Niall - your number 1 is a great question. I really don't know the answer and hadn't thought about this. I think it comes down to - if you make changes to an image that you want to keep, you better save it as derivative. I think this is what Chris is saying.

2- I believe that the LR catalogues will be backed up when you use the LR backup (which does not backup the actual photo files) Does anyone know if when using the LR backup it backs up the xmp files as well?

3 - The question of what makes up a real derivative gets a little more complicated with LR because of virtual copies. Certainly, anything that goes out to something like photoshop becomes a derivative. Also if you make a copy of an image and work on it within LR. That copy becomes a derivative. But if changes are only to the original file and If it stays in LR you will have to decide how important it is to keep the changes. If you don't save it as a derivative then you may end up modifying it in LR at a later date, loosing your original changes. I'm not clear on how LR keeps the information on virtual copies.

It looks like we need more information on the actual backup process. What exactly is in the LR backup, etc.

Dan


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 23, 2007, 08:06:13 AM
I believe a search can only be done on one catalogue at a time, unless I've missed something. I don't think you can search accross multple catalogues. Hence my question of catalogue names in the Derivs pathway.
I would ensure any change to a Master (original) file is saved in as a derivative. It may be a virtual copy nad hence it appears as if it has been moved to the deriv pathway, but LR will find it in either place, unless again I've missed something. I've only had the program 5 days and still learning.
I don't use LR's back up as I like mine. It backs up all my daily changed files in one go, (accounts, word docs, spreadsheets, catalogue, photos etc.)
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 23, 2007, 08:22:38 AM
I'm spending so much time in this forum, it may be telling me I prefer it to iVMPro?
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 23, 2007, 08:36:42 AM
@Chris, the xmp files are sidecar files which lightroom can generate it does not by default, they contains all the metadata about that file, i.e. ratings, key words and how you have developed the file.

So if I come back to my first question, I select a file which I had previously developed and wanted to rework it, the xmp file would now get updated. ideally this data should be saved.
I suppose I could generate a new derivative and import that back into lightroom, or create a virtual image, thus having the 2 versions of the master file. This seams to be the more natural way to use lightroom, but it does not follow your NEVER change a master after its archived which is a very good stand point.

@Dan, Are you intending to have a lot of catalogs? hence why the catalog name is in the derivative path.


For backups at the moment I use 2 hard drives and alternate them obnce a week, one is at work and the other is at home. I use mirroring software to update the disc as it only copies what has changed or been added. I am aware that the problem with this is that if a file gets corrupted on my computer this will propagate to the backup drives. Not good.

@Dan, I beleive the LR Catalog Backup will not backup the xmp files but I beleive all the data to regenerate them and more is contained in them. I will have a look at the backup process and tonight and see what it does.

Niall


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Niall Horley on February 23, 2007, 08:38:34 AM
I'm spending so much time in this forum, it may be telling me I prefer it to iVMPro?
Chris Bishop

I have not looked at iVMPro, I may try and catch the demo at focus, I may even see you there.

Niall


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 23, 2007, 09:08:47 AM

"Dan, Are you intending to have a lot of catalogs? hence why the catalog name is in the derivative path."

Niall,
The more I think about it I belive that I will create a sub-catalog within it's parent for anyderivatives within that catalog. At that point I would not have catalog names in the derivative path, just the bucket folders.


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 23, 2007, 04:00:08 PM
I've spent tonight playing.
I backup : My Documents  My Pictures  Lightroom  lightroomdatabase.Irdb
I hope this is right
My backup program finds the photos and the xmp files and backs them both up.
If I reload a master then it gets saved as a derivative - psd, tiff DNG with a suffix etc. I know there are other options, but it's only been 5 days, I'm learning.
To move a file or folder I use export, even within lightroom, I haven't found another way (yet) - keep as DNG
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 25, 2007, 01:41:44 PM
I've just come back from Focus. An easier way to move photos wothin LR is ti just drag and drop.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 26, 2007, 07:27:31 AM
Chris, do you mean moving photos within LR from folder to folder?


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Tom on February 26, 2007, 10:09:13 AM
Hello,
I was not able to open your latest iDisk pdf for some reason and I use a mac. I would like to see the latest revision of the work flow you use with LR? I am using the trail version now. I would like to use DNG and only plan on using LR and CS2 or maybe 3 when it comes out. I also use iPhoto sometimes so wish they would take DNGs as well but that is not critical.
If you could post it again I will try again to view it and maybe there are some additional changes that you have made. Also I have not used LR backup yet so will have to try that.

thanks


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on February 26, 2007, 11:29:29 AM
DannyG yes, I hadn't found the simple way - just drag and drop from folder to folder as you progress through the workflow per the book.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 26, 2007, 12:02:03 PM
John and Peter, do you have any thoughts or feedback on what we are trying to do here?

Dan


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on February 27, 2007, 01:12:43 PM
FYI
I've started to update my photos using what we have worked on here. On my flow chart I show the folders in the RAW buckets as ...
shoot_starting photo file no._date

I am now changing this and putting the date before the photo file no. ...
shoot_date_starting photo file no.

I have two cameras so obviously the numbers are different and I rather have the folders chronologically. Thought I would share this.

Dan


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: DannyG on March 01, 2007, 01:02:51 PM
I needed to remove the flow chart from my website. If you would like it, send me an email.

Dan


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Tom on March 18, 2007, 08:02:06 AM
Under prefrences there is a library backup feature. I have looked but am not certain what exactly that does and where it backs up to. Can someone please explain as I understand I should be using it.
Thanks,
Tom


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Chris Bishop on March 18, 2007, 08:34:33 AM
Yest the database should be backed up, but I use my daily back up program, just adding the database folder to it's list of folders to back up, along with accounts, spreadsheets Word docs etc.
Chris Bishop


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Tom on March 18, 2007, 09:30:18 AM
I do backup my hard drive weekly but should backup my database folder daily. The question I have is where is the library database folder found. I am on a mac.
I looked under LR but didn't see any thing accept if you want to backup library but not indication as to where it should go or a location for a database folder.
thanks again,
Tom


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: mhernandez on March 19, 2007, 10:19:39 AM
Tom,

Have you looked in your /Users/Tom/Pictures folder? It seems LR puts the central database there along with a Backup folder, if you decide not to make smaller databases. If you do make individual LR databases, LR might create the backups in a folder next to the smaller .LRdb.

I stopped using a centralized ibrary after beta4, as I have been making a new LR database for each "shoot" a la John Beary's "project-based" approach in the "Should I use Lightroom as my asset manager?"  thread. Storing this individual LR database, a folder really, alongside its corresponding RAW_ folder, which has the 'Proprietary RAW+XMP' files, helps me find the LRdb more easily. The LR database then becomes part of the regular backup routine for my RAW buckets. Per discussions in these forums, I am keeping iView Media Pro as my asset manager if I want to look for photos across shoots until LR becomes more DAM friendly. While it is a professional-level RAW converter, LR behaves more like Photoshop Elements (the Organizer, rough handling of metadata, no scripting yet) when it comes to digital asset management than CS2. I will be receiving Martin Evening's LR book soon and will see what he has to say about how to organize folders. (He may be using a central LR library for his own image collection, though.)

Mannix


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: Tom on March 19, 2007, 04:01:06 PM
Mannix,

Thanks, I found the database files and I have them for b2 b3 etc. I will sort those out so I back those up regularly. I thought about purchasing iview but at this point decided against it. I will work with LR for the next 6 months or so and if I find it satisfactory then I will stay with it and hope that the DAM function improves. Since I don't have a DAM currently, only iPhoto and some folders I am starting from scratch. I just want to make certain I back up my photos correctly. Keep me posted on the Martin's book. I was thinking about getting a book on LR or just joining NAPP and use there tutorials but for that cost I can purchase several books. Now that I have a registered copy of LR I will need to start in on organizing all my older photos, or at least the ones I want to keep.
Were does John talk about his organization on this site, if you can remember the thread.

If I just back up my LR folder under pictures I will have everything backed up at least as far as LR is concerned then. Do you know if I can get the b2 etc backups all to the v1 folder or do I even need to do that? I think I should just be able to delete those as they should al be transfered to the v1 backup folder.

Thanks,
Tom


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: johnbeardy on March 19, 2007, 11:55:51 PM
Tom

See http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=1614.msg9281#msg9281

John


Title: Re: DAM - the Lightroom way
Post by: mhernandez on April 06, 2007, 10:30:26 AM
Tom,

I believe LR v1’s ReadMe suggests converting pre-beta4 databases to beta4 then converting them to v1.

In my LR DAM testing, I was cavalier about moving the LR databases and files to which they point. A database can corrupt, so be careful. You can test an LR database’s integrity in Lightroom before opening it. The backup database by LR and my manual backup did not help, but fortunately I had exported all my LR adjustments to xmp before closing the program when I last worked on the images. I imported the ‘proprietary RAW + xmp’ folder into a new LR database and recovered my LR adjustments. PK is right, turning off ‘automatically write to xmp speeds’ up LR, but make sure you export to xmp when you are done. I use iView to distill the number of images that LR looks at to speed up the ‘cache’ even more by transferring the choice ones to a RAW selects folder for each photo shoot. Thanks, John B. for the link. Tom, the forum’s search engine is powerful for threads and even users’ post.

I have been reading Martin Evening’s Lightroom book and he mentions PK’s the DAM book at least twice, especially when it comes to making backups. ME’s book is worth it just for the keyboard shortcuts and quick tips alone. The keyboard shortcuts do not seem to be in the docs included with LR. The keyboard short cuts really make the adjustments of RAW, TIFF and JPEGs files fly.

A lot of the anecdotes in the book also appear in the Adobe podcasts. From their podcast point of view, Adobe delivered the goods in v1. Having said that, when it comes to DAM functionality, Evening admits LR does not have a full-featured DAM like iView. The DAM Forum gives insight on the pros and cons of LR vs iView. It seems LR was made for photographers like you so I hope it suits your needs for the time being. I make round trips from iview to LR and back a couple times in my typical workflow so I can use the strengths of each. I describe the gist of it in 'the LR to replace Bridge?' thread:

http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=1412.0#msg10089

Best of luck in your decision-making. DAM applications are a moving target as software companies leapfrog each other. I waiteed for Capture NX, and passed on it, then compared CS2 to LR, passed on CS2. I needed RAW-conversion speed with decent DAM integration and rmage quality so I pre-ordered LR, and am very happy with my workflow now.

Mannix